Nancy Lyons: Work Like a Boss

Here we are, another episode of Escape Velocity. um I'm really excited about this conversation with my good friend and just overall badass, brilliant human being, Nancy Lyons. I'm not even going to try to introduce you beyond that, Nancy. Just I'm going to say welcome and let you ah introduce yourself.

okay i like your glasses i'm just noticing those glasses they're badass um yeah as a as a glasses lover um so i'm nancy lions and i am your friend and um and very glad to be that uh i live in minneapolis i um i am a co-founder and ceo of uh uh

Thank you. Thank you. Put them on for you.

experience design and technology consulting shop called clockwork and then we have a little studio that we spun out of that called tempo um i i don't know i'm also i you know you know i i wrote a couple of books i do some speaking i'm a smart ass i get in trouble

what Well, I know. um But for anyone that doesn't know, yeah, I mean, if you don't know Nancy, um find her, look her up. ah The book, your book is amazing. Well, you're the one that I'm thinking of, which is, can you tell people a little bit about the book?

True. The book that I wrote most recently is called ah Work Like a Boss, a kick in the pants guide to finding and using your power at work. And it's basically you know it's the It's the book that I say most leaders want to give to their teams. It's a love letter. It's a tough love letter letter for teams because we're working in a different time and we're wondering you know why leadership is saying, well, you have to come back to work. Your butt has to be in the seat. And I think part of the reason for that is that as individuals, you know we've been disempowered at work. and um And i I want to encourage people to to recognize that and recognize what they can do to change how work feels for themselves and for others.

Well, ah um, yeah I was just talking with, uh, another friend of mine, um, on a, the last episode miles Kemp, and he was talking about how important trust is to just doing great work.

who

And you know, I think there's just such a disconnect between like a, an owner or a boss or a manager. And then the people who are actually like in, in the trenches together, doing the work and

Mm hmm.

you know, how do you foster that trust, right? And how do you encourage people on the team to not just think of it like a job, but to feel that sense of ownership when they're so often shown that they they don't have much ownership. They don't have a lot of say in what happens. And, you know, we've seen mass layoffs and, you know, it's a scary time. ah is How do you encourage someone to, to to kind of show up in the right ways across the board from the owners and the bosses and the managers to the people who are you know trying to show up and and do amazing work.

Mm-hmm. You know, I think that there's, you know, I have this talk that I do about entrepreneur entrepreneurship, and in it I talk about the difference between entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, or entrepreneurs and everybody else. And, you know, I sort of explore the the French derivative that is the word entrepreneur, and how the phrase in French really just means to do something.

Yeah.

and how the difference between entrepreneurs is, you know they had a bright idea and they did something about it. And most people sort of lack the, and I guess I'm gonna say grit because it's a mixture of courage and and stupidity um and risk tolerance, right? Most people lack that.

yeah

That being said, I think what what we have to get our arms around right now at this moment in time is we may not ah have ownership over the company, But we have ownership over ourselves, our careers, the path we're on, the impact we want to make, that amazing work you reference. And there's no point in doing it um inside of organizations unless we are you know, connected to that sense of purpose. And that's really what I'm trying to encourage in people is remember your purpose. We have agency. We are not victims of work, right? We are driving it. So you might not be an owner. You might not be, you know, somebody on an executive leadership team, but you are not without power and agency. And when you start to tap into that, even in small ways, when you start to recognize your impact, even on your immediate team, It starts to change how work feels, and that, I think, matters, especially right now.

Yeah, especially right now. I know um it's been so important for us to you know really engage with clients and partners who who share our our values and kind of and want the work and the purpose to be for good. um to to be growing towards something, building towards something, conveying something that is putting more good into the world, um however you define that. I think there's a lot of different ways to define it, but it's it's more than just capitalism, you know? And these constructs, like the construct of a job um is is a really foreign concept to just the way humans have, I mean, we're all naturally entrepreneurial. um that's We all have curiosity. We all um want to grow and get better.

who

And, you know, and I think, but we also have a fear of change. And, you know, I think there's, we were fighting against those two instincts all the time of like, you know, just put me in my lane and tell me what to do and tell me I'll be safe. And that's where I want to be. And then there's this other part that's like, no, I want to know what's over the hill. I want to, you know, well, what if, what if, or what about?

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, you know, I always love when And in in client services, right we want to get invested in the what-ifs for the client too.

Mm-hmm.

And it's why I always encourage the teams, you know like this is a this is a great organization or this is a this is a a a great place. um We're helping them. So let's you know let's think about the questions. what are the What are the what-ifs that they should be asking that they're not? And let's have those conversations and let's get invested. um because that's where like I think the good work, the great work, the innovation comes from, and it's when everyone's part of that conversation um along the way.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, i I couldn't agree more.

yeah

I frankly think we are in, you know, in in so many areas of our lives. But even in work, we are in this really pivotal moment where we have an opportunity to redefine that construct. And I think we're squandering it as we do with most big, you know, world shifting, culture shifting moments. because we're apprehensive and afraid of change, because you know when things change, they feel out of our control. And even the most disempowered among us want some kind of control. and And so I guess I think you know when when people like you and I get together and have conversations like this, I often think what I want people to get out of these moments is inspire to contribute in some way to the next more positive, more healthy, more sustainable definition or iteration of work. And I think that's what's what's what we're being challenged to do right now, but I don't know that many of us, especially the old guard leadership inside of larger organizations have heard the call.

Yeah. Well, the old guard um you know will be transitioning out as the old guard does. um But in the meantime, I do think that you know what comes to mind is is the is the cliche statement of you know fortune favors the bold.

Mm-hmm.

um and within And I also was thinking about ah how you've talked about like the sort of bullshit notion of work-life balance. um you know it's just like It's not like the show Severance where we just you know turn off one aspect of our lives and when we roll into work and you know hit buttons for eight hours and then switch back to have you know our who we are outside of work. um But i was really I'm so struck by how much ah I'm reading about like the the job skills that are going to be most desirable going forward and and how some of those soft skills are getting highlighted in ways that they haven't been before along with technology.

Mmhmm.

But it's not it's not like we need people now to like figure out how to work the technology.

Mmhmm.

We need people who are curious, who are good at and enjoy problem solving, who are good communicators, who have empathy.

Mmhmm.

um Creativity I think is gonna be a a sought after soft skill um because it's how we use all of this all of this technology that matters most instead of figuring out how to make the technology do certain things.

Mm hmm.

um Suddenly, it can do whatever we want it to do by simply having a conversation with it. That's pretty different. And that changes the the importance of who's sitting at that um at that computer or in those conversations with other humans deciding, you know, well, what do we want to do?

Mmhmm.

What do we want to say? um And increasingly, we're seeing people say a lot of the same stuff over and over and over again.

Mmhmm.

So while you suddenly have all of this ah power and and capabilities at our fingertips that we've never had before, why do you think it is that we're so we're doubling down on like the blending in, the I don't wanna stand out, I don't actually wanna say anything that might be too bold.

who Well, I mean, I think that, you know, the cultural landscape is such that we are wildly divided and bold is not appreciated, right? Because oftentimes bold requires us to meet somebody where they are and where they are might be decidedly different from where we are. And it's exhausting, you know, overall. So I do think that what's happening culturally is bleeding into work, whether we like it or not, even though, you know, to your point earlier, um you know, we the idea has always been, or or at least since we were industrialized, that we go to work and we become someone else.

Yeah.

And at work, you're supposed to behave yourself in a certain way. And I think people are really struggling with those cultural norms that were decided by not them. And ah and so I do think that what you're sort of pointing to is this moment. you know this ah you know We are on the precipice of massive change across all aspects of life. And um and we have the opportunity to use our power for good or not. um And, you know, one of the things that I personally have really committed to is just being a truth teller more than ever before, like saying it out loud, speaking truth to power.

Yeah.

um Because, you know, I'm in probably the last, I mean, I hate to say it, but I'm probably in the last third of my life, not the last half, probably the last third when you think about it, you know? um And with a limited window of opportunity in front of me, I can't be um terrified like so many of my colleagues and counterparts in the world of business. And so I do think we have to tell some of these truths out loud. I do think we have to raise our hands and risk being, um you know, risk criticism and and risk. ah I mean, the risk is small, you know, when you think about it, especially for some entrepreneurs. but um But I think it's incumbent upon all of us to call ineffective leadership, ineffective policies, you know to call disempowerment in action out um and and really recognize this moment that you know we're being called to respond to. And I think it's so interesting to me, the soft skills, that's the piece that I feel like I'm constantly reminding people when I'm asked, you know is AI going to take my job? and it's like not until AI has the capacity for love, not until AI has the capacity for you know ah emotion for those soft skills. We have we have ah much more capable ah analytical brains than those computers ever will be. Now, whether or not we use them as such is the question, right? like That's the challenge. But We are in a far better position to shape that technology and use it for good going forward um Because of those soft skills, but how do you grow them? How do you encourage them when at the same time we're being asked in the workplace? Well, don't actually be who you are, you know severance the the show came from You know came is modeled after You know the real realities of working culture and and it's there it's happening that story is being told for a reason and so um you know what are we going to do with this opportunity and how will we evolve as a species to meet work in a way that gives us purpose creates up more opportunity but doesn't kill us which is basically what work has done up to this point

yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah, it's also um you know AI will never have a lived experience to pull from.

Mm hmm.

you know and Each one of us has this unfolding opportunity, um which the book 4,000 Weeks puts into great perspective. you know You're just talking about your where you are in life. and um That's the gift of wisdom and and time is that you start to appreciate it differently when you start to realize how finite it really is. And for anyone who hasn't read the book 4,000 weeks, do it. um Be prepared to be kicked in the face multiple times as you read it, but it's worth it because you know it's it's what you It's what you go out there and expose yourself to and the different experiences that you have that makes you unique. And all of those things can be brought to your life, your work, um your relationships. that's That's what's special about being a human. um there's There's nobody else like you. There's nobody else like me. um And the AI is just pulling from all the generic shit that's you know already been put out there. So I do think that it's a really interesting time. And i you know when i'm when I'm looking at resumes, you know when I'm thinking about team members, even when I'm looking at potential clients, I'm i'm so curious. you know What else are they interested in? What else have they done um that's going to inform that that that contribution to the overall you know project or work or whatever, or just you know my time with this person. um And how am I going to contribute to to those um experiences as well? you know We all impact each other. And we only have so many people we get to meet or work with. um So I think being selective about it and curating it and being purposeful about going out there and and saying yes, exposing yourself to different experiences is so important.

who Yeah, i um I actually think that lived experience aspect um is why the DEI conversation of late really bothers me.

Yeah.

Because you know you said there's nobody like you, and yet what we know about you know most white people is we like to surround ourselves with close facsimiles, right? It's like that like we want to, our bubbles generally make us feel comfortable.

Yeah.

And so you know the the great misunderstanding, the huge gap in the conversation around DEI is this idea that it gives an advantage to not qualified, to unqualified people. When in fact, what it does is it forces the rest of us to in ensure that people with a wide variety of lived experiences that are in fact qualified are considered. And that's it. You know, that's that's really what we're trying to do because I think when you when you tear down sort of the history of work, it's been owned by white folks in this country since the beginning, the history of work, the industrial age, started it all, the stuff that's baked into who we are.

Yeah.

And um and it it it's unfortunate Well, it's ah it's so it's a goddamn travesty that this conversation is happening right now in the way that it is and the misinformation around it is being shared because I think that We only just got comfortable talking about that truth. We only just got comfortable in the last few years really recognizing that any person in any leadership role, especially white people in any leadership role, if you really stop and think about the your own history in your career and how you recruited your organization, recruited and vetted talent,

I know.

you cannot deny that until we opened our eyes to that truth, the pools of candidates were wildly homogenized for our own comfort.

Yeah.

And that's all it is because the lived experience, the diverse lived experience, make our products better. It doesn't matter what business you're in. It doesn't matter what you do or what you produce.

Absolutely. it's ah It's going to be very interesting to see how things evolve um when you have this this violent backlash happening, um which which brings me, you know obviously, like i've I've heard you talking about a lot of these things um in terms of the thing that's making you the most angry right now. ah Would you say that's that's it, that kind of violent backlash against DEI and and all it represents?

You know, I don't know that I would have classified it as an issue with the backlash against DEI.

and

I think um my issue is the... um Is the... Is the... Politiz... Politiz... Politiz... Forget it, I can't say it.

I know what you mean. Yes.

The politicizing... I'll just say that. Politiz... Politicization. That's it. Right? Politicizing. politicism Politicalization or politicization?

Politicalization. Yeah, I don't know.

that Look at that. We don't know something. um I don't know. I did it to both of us. But it's politicizing the and and flaming the fires of fear around the other.

Yeah.

um That's really what it is. it's it's It's losing our humanity and calling it politics. it's um it's de It's deciding that we aren't for much, but we are against a lot.

Well, how much of that do you think is coming from these last gasps of ah a desperate attempt to hold on to power by the I mean, yeah,

Patriarchy, yeah. i I absolutely 100% believe that's what's happening.

Yeah.

I believe that we are that that the ways of old are being defeated by the inevitable evolution of our species and the realities of what's happening on this continent we live on. um And I think that ah they're going out with a bang. The old ways of working and thinking and being and dominating are really clawing to stay relevant. They're really fighting to stay relevant and...

Well, yeah, they're fighting in a way that um it it does it feels and desperate. um The way that someone who is you know has one or two breaths left may fight and flail with complete disregard for um any of the repercussions, um which gives me hope because I've, I mean, the number of people I have talked to who are depressed, scared, freaking out, um It's, it's hard, you know, it's like, God, I feel it almost feels hard to be happy, to be positive, to be looking for the good in the face of such a giant, you know, black cloud of just, ah just a deluge of, of hate, fear, and these last last ah gasps at power and control. um But I feel like we cannot let ourselves sink into that. ah it's there you know At the end of the day, like we all have lives to live, and we should do our best to bring the best of it. um to each and every moment that we can and to the people that we love and whose the people whose lives we can have an impact on. And you know my universe is very small compared to what I hear about on the news. And if i and and yet there's there's so little, um it it feels like you can't have much impact or control over all these horrible things that you hear about that are happening.

Mm hmm.

And it gives me um great faith. ah you know I'm very happy I'm in the the wonderful state of Maryland. And I fear for more for the people that are in the red states and um who are who have you know horrible people ah in leadership positions in their in their states.

Mm hmm.

um But what would you say to the people who who are really just kind of at their wits end and and the depression that has has sunk in for a lot of folks?

Mm hmm. You know, it's interesting because Tracey, I think you and I are very similar in that regard. And I think part of it is, you know, we're business owners, we've done it more than once. um And at the same time, we're queer. And so that means you, yeah, yeah, we're here.

And we're here, get used to it.

Um, and I think, uh, what that requires is a certain amount of compartmentalization, some strength, some cur- like, like, ah you know, I don't, I don't know about you, but I, I'm, I know we're both Gen Xers. And I, when I came out, um, when I came out, it was not okay. It wasn't cool. I was a freak. And um you know I had somebody paint, I got a brand new car when I was like a junior in college or something. And it was ah new to me. it was ah It was a hideous beige car, but it was new to me. And somebody painted you know derogatory slurs in Hunter's Orange spray paint on the side of my car. um And i you know i I would share them with you, but they're not appropriate for airing anywhere. And I walked out of my apartment one morning and there was a crowd standing around my car and I was mortified and I was actually dating a guy at the time you know dating seeing I don't know what we would call it he was a dear friend is what he ultimately was and he's still somebody that I hold in very high regard um and he actually took my car and drove it through this small college town wherever and waved at people and beeped um his horn and took it to his father's garage and figured out a solvent and took that paint off of it so to avoid me the humiliation. The reason I share this story with you is you can't be queer and grow up in the 80s and come of age in the 90s or whatever and um not know how to have to have a life and find some joy in spite of what the world is telling you. And and so you know we fought for

Yeah.

By living our truths, by you know supporting organizations in the advocacy space, we fought for the direction we've been heading in. We fought to get married. We fought to have jobs and to you know honor domestic partnerships and to bring insurance. into our you know i mean Do you remember? I remember i remember early on in in my company, there were no domestic partner benefits and marriage was illegal and I did it anyway.

No. yeah

Like we fibbed on you know banking documents for 401k stuff. Do you remember that? I mean, did you?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, i I was in the same boat and and it yeah, you I mean, I just remember being like, I'm not gonna live by these rules.

yeah Exactly. So you gotta break them.

I'm not gonna live in fear. Yeah.

And that's what a lot of entrepreneurs do. And so the reason I use that as sort of the basis for my answer to your question is our joy is rebellion. Our success is resistance. And I'm not saying this like a big political activist. I'm saying this because it's the truth.

Yeah.

you know so So what I try to impart on people is um you know it is incumbentible It is imperative that we find and cherish those moments of truth and joy because it's the moments we get. it's not Joy isn't sustained. It's not this thing that lasts our whole lives. right it's not like And I think that's how we talk about it.

Yeah.

We think, oh, if this guy isn't president or if I have that lake home, You have a lovely beach house. Is it is it all of your joy? No, so you have to make it You know, it's not marrying Prince Charming. It's not getting the beach house It's not that far off destination and then you'll be joyful or happy forever. Happy doesn't work that way and if we aren't Intentional about our joy right now.

yeah

We're gonna miss those moments and we're gonna get to the end and the story won't be what it could have been. And so we have to have joy. We have to have happiness. We have to, and joy isn't like these, you know, it's not winning a price is right moment. It's, you know, my, if it's my, my teenager who never speaks actually sitting down and having a conversation with me or telling me he loves me as he walks out the door.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's my spouse and I finding time to actually have a meal with no interruptions, you know, it's, it's,

yeah Yeah, it's it's been it's being present for those little moments that are just if you don't if you don't pay attention to them and show up for them and recognize how much joy is in each one of them and how much

Mhm.

um and And yeah, not always, right? Not always, which is why it makes it so special to pay attention to it when it is there and you are helping to contribute to it and and and you're there, you're present for it, and you you um give it the value it deserves, you know, that you that you appreciate it.

huh Mm-hmm.

um Yeah. If you let other people dictate or other, you know, superficial things um be your goalposts that you're always moving as we, we always talk about that.

Mm-hmm.

Um, then you're giving away all your power.

Mm-hmm.

And I do think you will end up at the end going, man, I wish I hadn't done that.

who

And that's where I do think we are all, you know, masters of our own fate because we can control our perspective.

Mhmm.

i can I can choose how I look at a situation, even a horrible situation.

Mhmm.

It's still my choice for how I'm going to look at that situation and what I'm going to do in the face of that situation.

Mhmm.

And am I going to go through a door or am I going to go into a hole?

totally. And I think in saying that, I think it's important for us to acknowledge, like my intention is never to diminish mental health struggles, they exist.

No, oh, yeah.

But I also believe that two things can be true, that more than one thing can be true. And you can find those moments even in the context of, you know, because i don't I don't want to give anybody the impression that I exist in a cloud of toxic positivity. I do not. And in fact, you know, I take ah an SSRI like so many of the populations, so there, you know, let's demystify that.

Yeah, no, i' no, no. Oh, yeah, I just got I just started I so i started I started doing that. um I went through a lost a dear friend and was just and then with everything that was going on in the world, I, I was like, you know, I i can't seem to get i out of this hole that I feel like I'm in. And um and ah any and I'm always amazed when i when I mention it, people are like, oh, you know me too. or like But how dare you talk about it?

Mm-hmm.

How dare you admit that like you needed help, you sought some kind of um you know pharmaceutical support, or you were in a you were in a situation and with your emotional health and your mental health that you couldn't manage on your own.

Mm-hmm. yeah

I think toxic positivity is horrible.

Me too.

um

It's the opposite of what we're talking about here.

It is, it is, and and i I appreciate you ah underlining that. ah But I think that, and i've there are many times when I have felt like I'm at the mercy of things that I can't control. And when I've been feeling my best, it's when I've been able to muster the strength or the, you know, get the rest I need or get the support I need to get back sort of on stable ground and remind myself that it's my life and I get to choose.

who

I get to choose and I need to you know bolster that strength and in any way I can when I'm able to so that I am truly choosing.

who Yeah, absolutely. And i i ah I love that you said that because that's really, that's the through line through so much of, I think both of our approaches to work. That's the through line in the book that I talked about. The through line is you get to choose.

Yeah.

You know, you get to choose. Are you a victim? Or do you have some control? You get to choose. And some days it's harder than others. And some days you don't see that choice as clearly. Or some days, and so I get how people might push back on what we're saying here, you know, as it, you know, and suggest it's not a switch, you can flip.

Well, it's not a switch you can flip. And I also just want to acknowledge that I've had a lot of privilege. right in my life, even though you know I went through coming out and and and you know just just the the natural um challenges of being different at a time when it wasn't okay and it's still not okay everywhere.

Same.

And there are plenty of places in the world where lots of things aren't okay to be different um and yeah in this country as well. And I also just want to acknowledge that a lot of shitty things happen to people. They don't get to choose whether the shitty thing happens to them or not. Um, so that's not what I'm saying either because you know, change, whether it's good or bad is not always in your control. um And that's a really terrifying thing to acknowledge, but it's also, you know a lot of us, we don't get to choose when we die or how we die. um We've lost dear people in our lives um who didn't get to choose that happening to them.

Mm-hmm.

And ah we're all you know we're all headed for the ultimate um you know ah destination here. So I just think that Acknowledging that though, and then appreciating, well, I am here right now and there are certain things that I do get to choose about.

who

And, and at least knowing that I am doing my best to do that within the face of all the other things that you don't get to choose and that are hard and that can be challenging or can make people feel that they're stuck or hopeless um is, you know I mean, I think that's sort of, that's life.

Mm-hmm.

that's

Oh, yeah, I mean there were no good old days when we talk about that stuff or you know I won't say it but the but you know the the slogan of the political party that dominates those red states is Funny to me because it's like it suggests this this time in the past when everything worked and was great and you know I think the truth of the matter is humans are resilient. That's the truth. Like you said, stuff happens to all of us, both good and bad. And humans are resilient and we are built to last. We are built to move through those things. And to sit and and I think we romanticize the past because it is known. And we struggle with the future because it is unknown and it requires us to adapt and change. And we aren't comfortable with that. And and i I think what's happening right now is so much change and so much dueling priorities around this romantic notion of the past um you know that the we get caught up. But I do believe that we are headed to a better, brighter future because we know more. And I think we can continue to reject what we know or we can embrace it and use our big brains and our resilient spirits to address it and fix our planet and fix how we treat each other and fix who has access to resources and fix. And that means thinking differently and breaking down and dismantling systems that um that aren't working for everyone. And I think what's scary about that in how we exist today is you know the the the ruling authority is capitalism.

Yeah.

And capitalism does benefit a layer of the population more than others because it requires, that you know, capitalism is ah is an MLM.

Yeah.

You know, it it requires all of us to, you know, it it it requires that hierarchical, you know, power structure to continue in order for it to benefit those folks that have always benefited from it.

it is

and What's happening right now is a major threat to the way things have always been. I'm not saying that we won't have to work hard. I'm not saying that we have to re-address the imbalance of reward. um, in order to move forward in a healthier way. And that might not happen in our lifetimes, you know, because I feel like my whole life is this, is this tension between what I want, which is less stress, more rest, you know, and, and what I can avoid, which is that hustle, which keeps me always moving, always thinking, always, you know, I was trying to get something done or drive an opportunity.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess. um Is the hustle for the capitalism or is the hustle for the joy? you know And can we find enough ways to support ourselves and support our teams and our families that also are about the good and not the bad?

and

um Because I think that's a i mean that's a whole separate podcast we could...

And we're going to do with those. We're going to.

you Yes, yes of That's right, that's right ah Yeah, or at least ah Throw some lifelines throw some lifelines out.

Yeah. Tracey and Nancy. Change the world. Fix the world. Have opinions.

Yeah have opinions okay Yeah, I mean I just ah I think that things have ripple effects, you know, and I think that um If you if you just sit back and think I'm powerless and to have a positive impact or change the world because you know I can only influence so much.

There you go. Have opinions about changing the world.

You're really taking away all of your power because things do cascade. The the the smallest thing can catch fire and spread and you never know um whether you're missing an opportunity to start that spark or be part of that flame building into a bigger fire.

Mm hmm.

And I think it just requires a lot of you know purposeful thought about what how you show up and what you're doing every day. and um I don't know. i mean it's been It's been so interesting you know over these past few years working with Adeo and getting exposed to so many different aspects of you know politics and elected officials and um and you know industries like cannabis or renewable energy, things things where I'm like, wow, there's never been a market like this before. It's truly a new market or this is this is such a needed market when when you talk about renewable energy, but it's so regulated. there are so There's so much fear and resistance against the changes that we need to have happen in our world. because you But you've got the old systems are just getting more expensive, more more polluting, more you know doing more bad than good, but they are so entrenched and so powerful that um you know I just think it's like you just have to keep at it.

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It's true. I I've been making content on TikTok and Instagram lately, um as I know you have, too. And my and i and, you know, the thing I love about you sharing your painting is exactly that it's that joy, right? It's the you're sharing your joy and you're sharing the art of creativity, you're sharing the process of creativity. um And I love that about social. like i don't feel like i am I don't feel like social impacts my mental health because I don't compare myself to other people on social. Occasionally, I'll be like, wow, her hair is cool. look I look like trash, you know like a normal person. But I don't think, boy, I wish I had that person's life because the subtext is what's missing, right?

Right.

But um but I do like the the forming of community and the stepping outside your bubble and seeing the creativity of so the diverse creativity. And I think it's true on TikTok more than any other platform, frankly.

yeah.

But what I've really been trying to do, and honestly, I think I'm shadowbanned on Instagram and Facebook because My stuff touches on political stuff, but not intentionally. i don't feel like I'm not here to to you know be ah on a blue soapbox, um but I do think we've lost our humanity, and so I keep trying to drive messages that are hopeful like tiny little and it was interesting because I was I have no engagement on Instagram these days like nothing like very very minor engagement and I was starting to feel defeated, and I was at an event on Monday, and this is gonna sound like a humble brag, but just bear with me. I was at an event on Monday, and our lieutenant, and our the governor and lieutenant governor were speaking at the same event that I was, and we in the whole world knows our governor now, um Tim Walz, who's a lovely human being and is exactly who you believe he is, and you know I've met him on a couple of occasions, but more than anything, I've seen his career, and I know people that work for him, and he is exactly what he says he is. Our lieutenant governor came up to me and um she said, I just want to say thank you for the messages you're putting out there. And I thought, holy shit, like I'm getting zero engagement, but somebody sees what I'm trying to do, which isn't like I don't condemn any one person or name. I don't condemn any party. I just try to remind people that we get to be here, that we get to be joyful, that we don't have to be afraid and we don't have to drink from the fire hose.

Yeah.

And so I think to your point, I believe um that we all have not only power, but responsibility. And when you don't have the energy to move forward in a direction that's healthy for you, I'm going to be here. And I know you're going to be there for me, which is why our communities are so important, right? like um And when I forget my humanity, you're going to remind me and model that for me.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and, and I don't, you know, we don't live in the same community, but I know that about you. And I know that about so many people and I want to be that person. And even when you think nobody notices or nobody sees it, um, you know, I think the lesson I learned on Monday is they do, they do.

They do. They do. And, i you know, it's funny. ah You know, yes, I get great joy out of painting. um But it's also, it is an act of bravery. ah Every time I, you know, um'm ah people think it's, they're like, really? But it's, I'm, every time I sit down in front of a blank canvas, I have all the the self-doubt and the voices. um you know I'm never like, oh, I'm gonna sit down and make another great painting. you know I'm always like, oh God, you know do I really know what I'm doing here? why am i you know what if i and this is I've just been telling myself stories and this is bullshit and it's not worth it. um you know And it's like, I'm not some famous artist. and

Oh, but you should be. Your stuff is really good. Like, I'm still waiting.

ah

A, first of all, every time something that really resonates with me comes out, that like when you actually reveal it, I'm like, I want that and somebody else has beat me to the punch. And I'm like, damn it.

Well, you're very nice, but.

So I, i Well, I really do think that you are an exceptional talent. I don't know shit about art, like who the hell am I in the broad scheme of things, but I think your stuff is so, it just resonates so deeply because there's so much color and purpose and movement and and emotion and drama in the stuff that you do that I am i am moved, and that rarely happens.

Well, thank you. um I really appreciate it. and you It's been great. ah Social media has been great because it before that, it wasn't it wasn't easy for people to see art.

who who

um and you know it's Honestly, it was it was letting more people see my art or art in general that got me into the internet, that got me so excited about the personal computer. and learning how to code web pages and learning Photoshop. And, you know, like I saved my money and bought a scanner because I was like, oh my God, I can like scan my slides and then make them look, you know, make the pictures look good in Photoshop, not like with tape on the edges of the slides that I have to put in a carousel and mail off to a, ah you know, a gallery or to apply for some internship.

Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Mm-hmm.

Hold on, I got to let the dog in because he's very insistent about being in the office for all podcasts.

No worries. No worries. I got you.

He's a little late today, but.

Mine is sleeping. He always sleeps behind me, but sometimes he barks.

Okay, thank you for joining us, Frank. All right.

Hi, Frank.

Yeah, he would sit at the door and just bark otherwise. um But it's also, you know, it's terrifying every time. And so I know that when I'm sharing my art, that it's also, it's an act of bravery that I know inspires other people to be brave to.

Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

Put it out, put it, whether whether it's your art or your voice or your thoughts, the act of just sharing it, no matter who sees it, is is brave.

Mmhmm.

And is we need more of it. We don't need you know the influencers and the algorithms um to dictate all of this ah you know stuff that it thinks we should see or we are allowed to see. um So whoever is seeing it, ah you know I'm often just reminded that when I'm sharing, I'm helping inspire other people too.

Mm-hmm.

and i I tell myself that even when it's you know when I'm like, I don't even like this painting. It sucks. I'm like, ah, you know fuck it. I'm going to share it anyway. um Because it's not always great. And that's not the point. The point is we get to share. you know We get to share what's special about ourselves. And you know for me painting and then being able to share it and when it connects with people, it's the ultimate human connection.

who

because I'm translating something that I cannot explain in words and how bizarre that I can in pigment and ah you know color and movement.

I get it. Mhmm. Mhmm.

um But something is able to come through me that makes me feel the most like a being

Mhmm.

and not a body or a you know a worker or all the other things that you know might define us. I feel like a being that is able to connect with the other beings that are here um or who will be here after I'm gone through this magical kind of conduit. You know, I was at the, ah I was at the BMA the other night, Jamie and I were having a little date night and we went over there for their Thursday nights, they stay open late and you can have dinner. And I walked up to the van Gogh painting there of of his boots and I was like, I'm like, oh my God, i I feel this connection to this being and just through looking at his brush marks, that he painted the laces and the the nails in the bottom of the boot. And I mean, sure, it's Van Gogh. like ah But it's the connection to that person and how they were experiencing that moment in time that just, it's just profound.

Mm hmm.

It's just a profound experience. And it just reminds you that there is so much more going on here.

Mm hmm.

um then we get kind of bogged down in. And I think there's so much joy in in having those experiences and reminding yourself that that there's there's a lot more to be tuning into and appreciating and and to be thankful for.

Oh, yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, I and and what you've just expressed or You know, detailed is joy. That's your resistance, right? Like that is you, in so spite of the heaviness of the world, in spite of how people see each other, which I think is tragic because we are all so much more alike than we are different.

Yeah.

um In spite of all of that, you find your joy and your connection. through that art and I totally get that's how I feel about speaking you know it's like I'm terrified when I do it every time it doesn't matter every time I do it I just I feel like I'm gonna throw up because there's no reason for this chubby ordinary you know what I mean that's how I feel like I show up and then I show up and I get I feel like a preacher you know I feel like a preacher yeah I

Yeah. Because it's it's magical. I mean, magic flows through you when you speak and you you move people, you you change people for the better.

i think I think we all do.

Yeah.

That's what we're here for.

Yeah.

and And I think it's about having the courage to go to that place and experience the joy of making those connections with other people and maybe changing them just for a moment, but it's change all the same.

Yeah.

So I think that's where you and I you know are are similar. And again, I don't expect to change anybody in profound ways, But I think if they see themselves as being more powerful, if they see themselves selves as as as neglecting their own joy or creativity, if they see themselves differently, even for a minute, um then I feel like I've done something that was worthwhile.

Well, you say something there, you know, you you see people too. I mean, I think there are a lot of people who are so bogged down in themselves.

Hmm.

that they have never stopped to appreciate the beauty of really seeing other people. Whether that's through their art or their voices or their they're speaking or their words or or their movements or there ah their creations, whatever it is. um to not just be ah be so thrilled to throw yourself into that no matter. And you know for me, that's why i love have I love collaborating. I love working with other people because I love seeing what what all the other stuff that gets to come into my life and my world and be part of whatever it is that we're doing together or we're talking about. um it just it's like ah It's like a 10Xer to everything. um

Totally. So I wish we could teleport, you know what I mean? Because the amount of collaboration that would happen if getting two people was different um would just be mind-numbing. Because that's how I feel. that's That's how I feel. That's why I like you so much. Because i when I'm with you, I'm reminded what it feels like to be around people who think bigger than themselves, who think beyond themselves, who recognize the importance of seeing and hearing and valuing each other and, um you know, it's fuel. It's fuel for the soul. That's why I like you.

It is, it is, and it it's feel for the soul and and it it comes back to you, right?

here

Like you were saying earlier, when when when I'm in a dark place, it's those other people who inspire me and help me be brave and give me the strength to pull out of whatever tailspin I'm in. and whatever self-pitying you know or insecure or whatever, all the things that that we can fall into and just get out of that.

Mm hmm. who

Get out of my own head and just say, no, there's nothing good to be done here.

who

um This is an empty well. And that's the other thing too, is you know thinking about where I choose to put my attention. and my time.

Oh, yeah.

um And and i you again, while we can't teleport, I mean, it's just amazing to me that we're able to be having this conversation right now. and that you know I work with people who aren't in the same state as I am or even country, um you can have clients and we can all be so much more connected than we ever could be before. But we don't seem to often realize that it's not just about the fact that like I can send you a a digital document. I mean, we can connect. We can connect and that that connection has to be a conversation, an exchange, which means we all have to see each other and appreciate each other and then turn that into the magic that it needs to be turned into, whatever the task at hand might be. If you're not taking advantage of that, I feel like, um well, it's just, that's just a waste, unfortunately.

And I think that is what we're up against. You know, leaders believe we have to be in the same room.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, what you just said is more true. And that is, we just have to see each other. Whatever is required, we have to see and hear and value each other and give each other space to show up however we will. Because I also think, you know, just knowing that I'm a big mouth, I got to shut up in spaces, right? I got to make the space by listening more and really hearing and appreciating and and that's you know something well i had a colleague yeah several years ago tell me do you know you interrupt people and uh and i'm grateful that she did it you know now what i've come to find out as an adult who was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult is that's a huge symptom of that so it was another you know it was another

Yeah. Yeah.

um indicator that I should probably seek professional help. But ah I also think the safety of friendships where they can tell you, you know, they can give you that kind of feedback to make you better at valuing those connections and those moments, I think that's essential too. And we don't, as ah as a culture, as a speed species, we're not good at giving each other feedback, we're not good at honest conversations, we're not good, and all of that is required of us to take advantage of this moment. and And I think that that's what you're saying, and

Yeah. Yeah, I just think that there are a lot of people who they need room to be heard and seen more than ever right now. You know, you were just making me think about how much I would love a conference where all the speakers were in the audience and the audience was the one, the the people who were talking.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

um and And I mean, that's a crazy idea, but um I think that there are you know there are a lot of people who, it's it's their responses that I would love to hear more than what the people who are talking are saying.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

What's the reaction? What's the thinking that's happening after those things are said or shared?

here

um And it would be messy and it'd be a hot mess, but it'd be great.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

We'd have to, yeah, an unconference.

An unconference. That's kind of an unconference. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, um on that note, let's go off and plan all of our unconferences. And thank you for just freewheeling into this conversation with me.

Yes.

I knew we would have plenty to dig into. and

Anytime we could keep going for hours, that's the sad part.

Well, I know, and i think I think we should. I think we should we should get a whole separate um podcast going and keep it up.

Let's. Let's do it. We're in, I'm in.

And meanwhile, yeah, for anyone who has ah who is listening, thank you for being part of this journey. um I welcome you know comments, feedback, reach out to me, Nancy, anybody, anytime. um Take care of yourselves. Let's keep looking for the joy, always. Thanks, Nancy.

Thank you.