Mallory Willsea: Build the Stage

Welcome everyone to another episode of Escape Velocity. I'm your host, Tracey Halvorsen. And today i am chatting with Mallory Willsea, who I've known about for years, just in the networks that I've been in. And Mallory, thank you for joining me. Thanks for being here. ah Tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

Hi, Tracey. It is awesome to be on this side of a podcast mic for once. um I am the host of the Higher Ed Pulse podcast, an award-winning podcast on the Enrollify Network, and I'm also a consultant in the higher ed space. I help brands build authority through market presence and influence, and we're definitely going to unpack what that actually means, I am sure, and during this podcast.

Well, thank you so much. Um, you know, I've seen, I've just watched what you've been up to over the years and, and kind of seeing your, your journeys through different, you know, working with different media platforms and, and organizations. And you've definitely, you know, created an arc for yourself. You've made some pivots and some, some changes. And when we were chatting about this, one of the things that, um, that you started talking about was, you know, not waiting to be invited to a seat at a table. And I just want to start there because as women in business, right.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, just tell me more about when, when did you realize that that was something that you needed to really embrace?

Yeah, that's a great place to start. um This idea of women in leadership is ah one of those hot button topics for me. ah It really always has been, especially because most of the rooms that I've been in, whether I was early career or um you know at my last role, I never always felt like those rooms were built for me. um And I often looked around and i felt like um or visibly saw that I was one of the very few women in that room and often the youngest person in that room, which is a whole other topic. um And I think that for me, i maybe the metaphor that resonates most is is building the stage that you want to step onto. um Because I grew up as a theater kid, Broadway is my most expensive habit, and um I'm also a fitness instructor. And so this idea of being able to step onto your own stage and give yourself a microphone um is kind of what drives me, you know, when I wake up every morning, right? What what is the stage I'm going to step onto today? And what am I going to say into that microphone? And and I always want to make sure that um it's, you know, that that i'm I'm saying something that that is going to have an impact, right? And and I take that idea of creating that stage and putting the microphone in front of me really seriously because words really matter. um This is a tough time that we are in right now, just in general, in life, post-pandemic and politically and and all these things in our industry that are happening, right? And so every day feels serious and maybe more serious than the day before. So it's It is so important, I think, as young leaders, as as female leaders, um that that we just, you know, we we just stop waiting for people to hand the mic to us, um build our own stages, and and just kind of take control.

and I agree. um You know, i I love working with you know younger women that are coming into the industry, whether it's at my agency now um or just through the networks I have. And one of the things I always say is, you know, no one's going to, don't wait for people to ask your opinion, right, to in order to have one. um Have an opinion. be It doesn't matter how early you are in your career, how much experience you have. have an opinion and don't be scared to share it. You can always change your mind, but write about it, talk about it, put it out there. If you think that you have an opinion or perspective or experience that through sharing that can result in, you know, transformation impact in your own life, in others' lives, in the work that you're doing, don't keep it to yourself. um You know, I think that there is such a, there's, there's so many people that are, that do wait to be given the platform. Um, and, and whether you're a leader by title or not, that's really, in my opinion, what leadership is about. It's about stepping up and saying, I have an opinion. i think I know how things could be better, whether that's for someone that you're working with or a client or for yourself, So I, yeah, i champion that. I think it's scary, right? It's very scary to put yourself out there and and express those things. um How did you overcome some of that fear? What did you encounter moments in your career where you were like, oh God, is anybody listening? Is this mattering? You know, what am I doing this for?

Yeah, that's such a good question. And yeah so I'm having these two competing thoughts and only one thing can come out at once. The first thing I'm thinking of is the tenets of storytelling. and how conflict is a tenant of telling a good story, right?

Yeah.

There is no good story if you don't have some level of conflict. And in fact, you probably have to have a lot of conflict in order for a good story to be made.

Yeah.

Right? Pixar, Disney, like this is this is core. and And so having an opinion, and and I say this as somebody who loves to avoid conflict, do not get me wrong, but like having an opinion can generate some conflict. And that is actually far more interesting and engaging and attention-grabbing than not, right?

Yeah.

Than the opposite. And so advice I often do give to people I'm managing, especially who are early in their career, is very similar to what you were just saying around, you know, true leadership um requires you to have an opinion um and and to just kind of get over it, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like we just... It sounds simple and it's not. And I say that, but, but sometimes you just do, you just got to get over it and just say it, say the thing and have the opinion and know that what's influencing it is, is probably some really smart thinking. And that's what actually leads me to the second line of thought, right? As you ask that question, um, as I actually reflect back on my career, Almost every moment that really mattered required me to like jump off a cliff and and never actually um know that my parachute was going to open up because it was a brand new parachute that like I'd never tried before. So, um, so every time I feel like I had this, this really important moment that pivoted my career or, or helped me achieve the next thing, it was because I at least trusted myself that I think I strapped the right parachute on for that, for that jump.

yeah

Um, and, That comes back to the point of having opinions because oftentimes jumping off that clip cliff required me to have an opinion where I actually didn't know.

you

I didn't have the ability to gather all the data to inform that opinion because I was doing things that had never been done before. And so sometimes it's just, again, maybe it comes back to trusting yourself and and building that own stage for yourself. Yeah. But look, I'm always open and the first one to say if my opinion is incorrect or I need to change it. And I think that's the beauty of education and the beauty of us being in higher education um with more education, with more information. We always can continue to grow and shift and mold and shape our thoughts.

Would that, that's great. ah Would you consider yourself a, one of those, you know, lifelong learners? Are you always looking to learn new things or are you a curious person?

Yes, a hungry and curious person for knowledge. ah We were talking about my alma mater, St. Michael's College, right before we hit record. And, you know, I really credit that institution with um fostering that ah drive to learn. I am so such a fan of the liberal arts. um I think that the kind of the core things of of learning how to learn and and how to think, um are so important and just are increasing in importance every single day. i think I just saw an article over the weekend that one of the leaders at at one of those AI companies out there, you know, I don't know if it ChatGPT, but one of them, um, actually came out and said the biggest skill to have right now as a young person is learning how to learn. So I think that the world that we're in, um it's it's necessary. And I guess i I'm lucky that that it's something I always hunger for. It's not something that I have to force myself into.

Yeah, you know, it's ah there's such a ah it's a paradox, really, because I think as humans, we we look for certainty. We look for safety. You know, we're we're wired that way, right? If the cave's not collapsing, like, we're going to stay in the cave for our shelter.

Yes.

Right. But then there is this curiosity for knowledge um and learning and and change. And also then conflict happens, right? There is no certainty in life and things change is inevitable. So whether that's a change that you brought on because of your curiosity or your experience or it's brought to you by just life, there's really no such thing as just rinse and repeat, you know, and for whatever reason, I think that we start out our lives thinking, well, we're going to get to a certain point and then it's all going to be, we're just going to be fully formed. And then it's just, we get into, you know, the process of living our lives and it's smooth sailing and it couldn't be further from the truth, unfortunately, um or fortunately. Right. But that's, that's kind of what life's about. and For me, it's always been ah important to keep learning because that's how you keep growing and changing.

oh

And it's so easy for people, think, to just kind of stop and say, well, I guess, you know, this is it. and That's where that idea of escape velocity comes into play for me because you know things are going to happen in your life that are going to cause you to need to you know fire up the rockets and and escape kind of what's no longer serving you anymore. um or to get to that new place or grow to that next level. But I don't think it's very easy for people to know how to do that. um And I think it's very scary. And like you said, it requires some some leaps of faith and some trust in yourself and all all of that. I'm curious along this whole you know angle that we're going down, AI, right? AI comes on the scene. And to me, it reminds me of the early days of the web. um There's just so much unknown. There's so much potential. This is powerful technology. And I see a lot of different perspectives on, you know, whether it's the devil and, you know, it's going to ruin the, destroy the world and everyone's lives, or whether it's, you know, the There's people out there, the the snake oil salesmen who are, you know, instantly trying to sell you their courses on it or all of this.

yeah

um Tell me about how AI has, because I know you work ah in the world of of AI with some of your, you know, your past jobs.

you

And how does that factor into what you're doing right now, um professionally and personally? What do you think about it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I am very much on the record as being a proponent for AI. um I do believe that you know the promises of um you know being more effective and efficient, being able to work alongside this incredible tool, um treating it like an intern, et cetera, et cetera. like I ah really deeply believe in all of those things. um I was at Element 451 when you know we like to say AI happened, right? Because yeah, of course, like artificial intelligence has been ah around a lot longer than ah the dawn of ChatGPT, right?

yeah

Like and we've been using it in our own homes for a lot longer than ah the fall of 2022 or three or whatever.

yeah Yeah.

um But ah with the ability to integrate generative AI into our work, oh my gosh, it just... it unlocks so much. I saw it for myself. I saw it for the team I was managing. I saw it for the business I was working in. And thank goodness I was working for a leader, Artis Kadu, who had been steeped in the world of AI for many years um and was the biggest advocate for it internally. I mean, literally like on a dime, everything changed overnight for us. And all those plans and you know everything we had done for months leading into the next calendar year out the window because we're putting our bets on AI. It's here. It's not going anywhere and it's going to really matter. um I think the industry is still catching up to that. you know I talk to a lot of leaders through my podcast, through ah speaking i do at various events, and I get it like a CMO or a chief of staff or um you know a VP of enrollment. um they're being pulled in a lot of directions. AI is one of those directions. ah But I think that when we see the clear examples, and I point to Forsyth Tech Community College and President Janet Spriggs as a shining example of this quite often, because when we see these clear examples from early adopters with top-down leadership, where they've created a community among their organization, that experimentation and usage um with AI is welcomed and championed, not something that you have to hide. um And when the investments, the monetary investments being made in these tools actually come with an integration plan um and top-down support and, and you know, task forces and policies and processes to actually utilize the tools the way they should be used, um you start to, you know, quickly see the gains.

Okay.

um And so, and and personally, right, so I might not be at a company, I'm on my own now, but my gosh, like I, while I have worked in digital and the web and all these things, I am not a web designer. i do not code. I, you know, like... You don't want to, you have beautiful paintings behind you, Tracey. You do not want to give me a paintbrush. There is no bone in my body that designs anything well. But now I can use these tools and I can create, you know, all of these things, my my own website, my own slide decks, you know, whatever it might be, because I have this incredibly capable assistant next to me and I've gotten really good at managing him or her.

yeah

It? I don't know.

You know, being creative, right? What i love about AI is that it does empower so many people to actually be expressive, more expressive um with their own creativity and their own ideas and being able to get it out there into the the realm that we, you know, mostly live in ah these days, which is so much in the digital and on the on the web. That sounds like the unlock you're kind of talking about, right?

yeah

Like you don't want to have a paintbrush or being, you know, trying to go into Figma and design something, but the ideas are there. The, you know, the creativity is there.

Right.

And now these tools just through purely communicating your ideas can generate these manifestations of them. um And you can change them and and launch them and all of that. It's

It's incredible. I am in awe of what AI allows me to do every single day.

Do you, when you're working with clients, where do you see the biggest obstacles most often? Is there a reoccurring theme, you know, in terms of them reaching that escape velocity in how they're adopting AI or using it? Is there a common barrier or a set of common barriers or, or, um, blockers that you see?

I think there's a variety. It depends on the organization, depends if there's support from the top.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

um But time is, maybe not surprisingly, but time is the biggest barrier. because And people get in their heads about it. AI moves incredibly fast. We know that. And so every day that we feel like we're falling behind, on AI is like exponential, right? More so than maybe some of these other innovations that have happened in the past. um And so then we get stuck in that and more days go by and then we feel like we're even farther behind and that we have this you know massive AI mountain now that we have to climb. um And so I think that that paralyzes um some people

Yeah.

um and And so time is, I think, the number one thing that I see kind of across the board because people recognize, all right, well, like, I don't have any time, but I need to go put time into learning this thing. And and I go back to that.

yeah

um CEO at Element 451, who I think for me, the biggest unlock around the time barrier was when he pulled up a cartoon of a bunch of people dragging a cart with square wheels on it, right? We know how long that's going to take to drag that cart. And then the person standing in the back is holding the round wheel and saying, hey, just i got I got it.

yeah

Just switch them out, switch them out. And everybody dragging the cart like, sorry, we don't have time to do that.

Yeah.

Right. That, that like unlocks everything in my brain. I'm like, oh, you spend two minutes switching out the wheel and then you are running to the finish line 30 seconds later.

Yeah.

Got it. So I try and use that example because I think it illustrates the point, but, um, yeah.

No, I think it's it's great. And it does it does take some, you know, if you don't have someone at the top or that can really usher in the the wheel swaps, I think it's overwhelming for organizations to try to understand, because it's not like one wheel. It's not like you just sop swap all four wheels out with the round ones and you're off to the races.

Right. Right.

Every organization is different. Every need is going to be different. So where do you start to replace the wheels?

right

In what roles? you know what's the What's the expected you know transformation that you want to see? And how do you empower your team to like take that and run with it? ah

And how do you help your team understand that they are not the wheel?

Right.

The tool is the wheel, right? And you're not swapping them. You're helping them. Because, yeah you know, it's true.

yeah

AI is going to um automate and replace jobs. It just is a fact. um But there is an art to leadership um where we are at in this moment to help our teams understand that um it's not replacing anybody today. most likely. um And it is going to help them um you know exponentially get more things done or at the very least be able to do the parts of their job that they hopefully enjoy the most.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I really appreciate not having to sit and edit things and proofread and, you know, hunt and peck for little bits of copy that I need to put together, you know, in a proposal or whatever it might be.

Less. Yes.

So a lot of time savers. um And one of the things we did early on was just make sure that everybody on the team had access to these tools and

Mm-hmm.

And we started doing, you know, lunch and learns. Let's share what it's everybody, you know, be playing with it. Use it in your free time. Here's how I'm playing with it. Here's how I'm using it at home. You know, on the last podcast, I was talking with ah Christina Melito about one of the biggest wins for me was using chat GPT to help me fix a pepper grinder. Um, I used it this weekend to help me fix a receiver because some of my wires had come unplugged and things weren't working right. And so I was about to start pulling my hair out and getting really frustrated.

Yeah.

then I thought, oh no, I'll just take some pictures and give it to chat GPT. And sure enough, it just, it was like, oh, well you need to plug this in here and do that settings.

ye

I was like, thank you. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I had a friend who had something hanging down from the bottom of her car. I still don't really know what it was, but I took a photo of it and sent it into chat GPT.

yeah

I was like, what what's going on and can she drive her car? And I was like, yeah, it's fine, but you know like I don't know anything about cars, right?

yeah

But I could at least let her get behind the wheel and feel like, okay, you can leave my driveway and your car's not going to blow up.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's such a powerful technology for, for so many different things. Um, ah your, your car metaphor was just, or your car story was just making me think about something. i um you know I think that there's there's real fear out there too around the you know the environmental impacts, the ethical use of these tools. And I know that that keeps a lot of people from engaging with them because they've kind of just written them off as um as's not good for multitude of reasons.

Mm-hmm.

What what do you what are your thoughts on those on those sides of ai

um I mean, I'm getting on a plane tomorrow. Like there's an environmental impact to that as well.

Yep. Yep.

We're recording this on, you know, using technology and electricity and you know, i I at least drive an electric car.

yeah

Is that my offset? I don't know I don't mean to be like flippant about the environmental component because um I did stop saying thank you. Yeah. As a standalone because of the the education behind how much, you know, that that in and of itself, if everyone could just stop saying thank you to ChatGPT, we'd be saving a lot of trees. But um I think that if we are going to stick our head in the sand on a very powerful and innovative new thing that is going to like reshape our world, you

yeah

Like that we just, we can't, we can't stick our head in the sand. It's, it's going to happen either way

Yeah.

um And there's a lot of things in this world that have poor environmental impacts and we choose to do them every, you know, like I still do my two day shipping on Amazon. Like, and and so i it's all, it's all about balance, right?

yeah

It's all about balance in life.

Well, I know. And, you know, with every big change, there is a negative, I mean, you know, with the industrial revolution and, you know,

Right. Yes.

major advances in our in our world, in our society, have come at a cost. And obviously, we're more aware of those costs right now and the damage that is being done. My hope is that this technology will help us conquer some of those things. um

Absolutely.

You know, that that's my that's my hope, is that with this technology, we'll be able to make faster advances around clean energy, around food production, around you know, equity um for the world. So i kind of am putting my eggs in that hope basket for the technology because I don't see anything else really on the horizon that that might make as big of an impact.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, I think that also like AI is is not going to solve our biggest problems all by itself. It's sure it's giving us massive computing power, massive technology,

parents.

you know, ability to analyze data and crunch numbers and and spot things that we couldn't normally spot much faster. um But there's a there's a great book called The Medici Effect, and it talks about how innovative ideas often come from very random, you know, experiences and ideas. One of the stories was about architects who were, they were trying to build um affordable housing in like a sub-Sahara environment. And they needed to deal with the issue of heat and air conditioning, but they couldn't put, you know, for cost and environmental issue and all that, they couldn't deal with them. They couldn't manage to figure out how to put in air conditioning and keep this housing cool. So they brought in people who who were studying termite nests in that same environment. And through the the collaboration of all of these different people with different experiences and ideas, they came up with a fantastic solution based on how termites handle cooling in their, in their nests or whatever you call it, giant termite hive. um And that, i always think but about that because i do think that that's where AI is not going to, it's never going to have a lived experience. It's never going to have its own story to kind of bring to the equation that And we need to use it as a partner, but we still need to rely on our own human experiences and and creativity, I think, to solve big problems.

I have written that down, Medici effect. I need to go read that. the um The idea of how to innovate is very top of mind right now for me as I'm getting on a plane tomorrow to fly to a conference and to give a keynote on innovation.

Mm-hmm.

um And so if anyone's listening that like is really interested in this topic, I would add to your book recommendation um Larry Keeley's 10 Types of Innovation. um It is an excellent ah book.

oh

it's It is fairly short. It is an easy read, but Keeley breaks innovation down into 10 types. um And actually your example illustrated his framework in that oftentimes the best ways to innovate are by taking ideas that seemingly have nothing to do with the challenge that you're solving um and pulling it in, right?

yeah

Like the termites in your example. um Keeley gives us a framework of 10 different types of innovation so that you can actually put a little bit of process um around this notion. um But you know like ah think about like when Dollar Shave Club started um and you know this idea of a subscription payment model to razors, right? Razor is always a very different type of um ah cost model in the stores, right? Dollar subscription comes out says, no, we're taking the subscription payment model and applying it to razors and people are like, you're crazy. And then Dollar Shave Club blows up and gets bought by Gillette and they're they are doing really well for themselves right now. So, right.

no

But it's like, it's that idea of it. So sorry to go off on that little tangent, but like I said, super top of mind. And I find this idea of how to innovate really interesting. And I think a lot of people want to innovate, but but either maybe don't trust themselves to step on their stage and do it. and And this, like, I always love a framework, right? I always love a framework because it puts some some organization to thoughts. um And so that's that's a really good one that I've found.

Yeah. How do you how do you foster that in your own life? I mean, obviously you can't just sit at your computer and do your work and not be feeding your, yourself and your own creativity and your own ideas around innovation. And certainly the second part of that question is, you know, diversity in the team, that you might be collaborating with, but how do you do it for yourself? Because obviously, you know, i think there's a, there's a, a risk, right. That we might stop fueling the, uh, those, those engines for lack of a better idea.

Well, that probably comes back to a love of learning, right?

Yeah.

And and not um allowing yourself to be stuck inside your own bubble, whatever that bubble is. So you can have a lot of bubbles, like it can be your marketing bubble, but then it's, you know, oh, well, I'm in tech, but then like I am operating in higher ed.

Yeah.

At some point you have to look outside of those bubbles and that that goes back to that framework, right?

yeah

It's the idea of pulling in these disparate ideas, right? um and layering them together to create something viable, new, interesting. It's not just like a better mousetrap. It's oftentimes completely changing how you organize yourself and your work, how you um connect with people, the experience that people are having. Um, so that's, i'm I'm always trying to like, it sounds weird, but my brain, i'm like always trying to dissect things in that framework. Like, okay, like this is cool. Like, uh, let me dissect it now and break it up into its type. And okay, well, we don't really have a lot of types here. And like my framework says we need to layer multiple types. yeah So I'm just like always trying to break things into their own components when it comes to innovation.

Yeah.

But I think there's, you know, there's a lot to be said for educating yourself outside of like what is just going on within the little bubbles that you might operate within.

Totally.

Hmm.

i encourage my teams and my so and try to remind myself too. You know, luckily I have a ah ah creative practice that forces me to, you know, with the painting that I do, i'm I travel, I meet other people, I'm always faced with a blank canvas. you know I'm not in the in the work of like reproducing you know a certain look. um So it's always a journey of discovery. But also just you know who I talk to, the books I read, the experiences I open myself up to all feed that and So I always encourage people, you know, whether it's a hobby or your vacations or ah conversations you're having around the dinner table with your family, those can all be sparks for innovation. um if you kind of embrace it and don't don't just kind of go start going through the motions of life, which to me is, I see a lot of people doing that.

yeah

And it's it's and it's it's nuts not a great way to live, you know, trust me.

yeah

Like it's it might be comfortable and easy, but it's going to, It's going to leave you kind of wanting more, I think, down the road.

Well, I mentioned like as a fitness instructor, right? Like I have to step out of a comfort zone every time that I put that microphone on.

Yeah.

And I think that has had definitely a very, i mean, it's certainly had a positive impact in my life, right? Because it's its exercise and all these things. But like in my work life, I have often felt like that, um you know, for me, teaching a fitness class is my creative side of my brain, right?

Yeah.

So if you pick up a paintbrush, like, I put on a you know hype playlist on Spotify and tell people to tap back and do like you know elbow presses. um But for me, that unlocks things in my brain that like I often felt when I went back to my desk after coming from teaching a class. like I was opening my brain up.

yeah

in different ways. And music has always done that for me.

yeah

um But there's just something about like the, you know, it's it's it's another cliff that you're just jumping off of every every time you start a class because who knows what's about to come out of your mouth as much as you might prepare. You know, like it's, anything can happen. Anything can happen.

Yeah.

So it's been great training. and

Yeah. I mean, it' I love that. That's great. I, um, I want to know what your Spotify playlists are for you.

Ooh, Mallory Willsea, you can just look me up and you're going to get all sorts of K-pop, EDM, rap. Okay.

It's great.

edm

All right. All right.

rap

Yeah. I mean, music is, is such a great motivator and and inspirational sort of, um, space And I love, you know, music is one of the only art forms that you experience in time. And I, and I just, I love the way I i think it changes the way I think about time and experience time um in such a profound way. So I love all kinds of music, but I especially love that you have to experience it in time.

Yeah.

um All right. That's a, we won't go down that rabbit hole, but yeah.

A tangent for another day.

ah

Yeah.

That's another escape velocity. um Back to you know our shared kind of background working in higher ed. right and Higher ed is notoriously slow to innovate, you even when they say they they want to. and Right now, they need to. and There are so many headwinds facing that industry from all different directions. um what's What's your advice to people who are working in higher ed, especially in like the marketing or enrollment side where the the bucks really stop um literally, who are facing all these headwinds, know they need to innovate and take a lot of risks, but they're in this environment where it's so traditional, so conservative, so slow to adopt.

Yeah.

um where have you you know Do you have advice for people in those teams? Or have you seen some successes? Yep.

Yeah. It is really hard, right? it is It is such a challenging time right now. And I think we're you know we're in an industry that's shrinking, not growing. ah More schools are closing their doors every day than new ones are opening. And i think we have to recognize that is the moment we are living in.

yeah

10 years from now, i you know If a person listening right now works for a college or university 10 years from now, that college or university might no longer exist. um And there's a lot of reasons for that, and some of them are good reasons. like The market does have to adjust to the demand. And we are in a different place than we were 10, 15, or 20 years ago with different demographics.

Right.

um But I think i think that... If I'm, if I am advising, like if I'm speaking directly to somebody who is leading a Marcom team at a college or university, um, and you know, 10 years from now, your school might not exist. Then, then what are we waiting for? If time was the challenge for AI, time is now the challenge for the future of this industry. And, Like you said, you know taking risk might be challenging because of the the conservative environment you might be in or the the willingness to innovate around you, um but there's got to be little ways that you can find it in your day-to-day. it and Every little win right can stack up and be proof points that can build the consensus that uh, build the, um, what word am I trying to think of here? This is one of those moments i'm like, please remove this from the recording. It's not, ah it's not the consensus, but it's like the, the goodwill, the like,

The support?

the support. Yeah. was like, support feels like not a big enough word, but you know, all right, I'll just step that back. Um, think it's when you can layer in all these little wins on top of each other, um that's where you can start to find proof points. That's where you can start to build support around you um and start to build some consensus that trying something new and different is going to be okay. And you don't have to overhaul the biggest... piece of your communication on day one, right? Like find those little things that maybe you can change. Maybe you ask for forgiveness, not permission. I've kind of always done that in my career, whether that's right or wrong. I don't know, Tracey, but I'm just like, I'm a forgiveness gal.

I think that's right.

So like, let me find the five little things that like maybe no one will even notice if I just aren like start just start tweeting

Yeah. That's right.

in it here, there. And, you know, I'll ask for forgiveness, but the reality is i know I'm going to make the changes and I'm going to prove to you why they were good changes. And then you're going to thank me. And then I'm going to go apply them to the next five things. Right. I think it comes back down to risk. We just got to not be afraid of it. Have the opinion, take the risk and, I don't know, just do it. Like a too simple though.

Yeah, I know. nike

Is it in this Nike too simple here?

ah

ah

Well, i mean, I don't think it's too simple, but I think what you know where and how to start. um Because right now the headwinds are for higher ed in particular, and if you're talking about marketing and communications or just brand, um these are headwinds that are showing up when there are still a lot of other headwinds. that started showing up when social media really became, you know, all the, all the channels started fragmenting and the distrust of, of Gen Z around any of the official marketing and language.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it's like the, I think today's audience, especially if they're high school kids, you know, the, the future um potential students at your school, they are not probably, paying attention to the things that you're spending the majority of your time and money putting out there.

Yeah.

And so I think that it's really hard for people because it requires a lot of letting go of control. if you if you really want to get the authenticity and the stories out there in the places where kids are looking for it and will believe it, you have to let go of some of this institutional control that is so baked into higher ed. And so I see a lot of fear and apprehension around that.

Yeah.

um You know, it's like you got to you got to find your ambassadors and let them take the wheel and tell the stories good, bad and ugly. Let's stop pretending like there's some veneer that people are buying. They're not buying it anymore.

Yeah.

And they're not buying the. the bullshit. um you know There's too much at stake.

yeah

There's too much skepticism. And so I think that schools that are trying to ride on that, like, we'll just blend in and we'll we'll say a couple of good things. When you're asking for this kind of commitment, I just think it's it's a losing strategy.

yeah Yeah. 2009, Mallory, agreed with you too. Like, to so does 2025, Mallory, but 2009, Mallory, agreed with you.

Yeah. I know. Yeah.

And the way that I was able to overcome, um you know, the the challenge of, ah you know, getting the institution comfortable – with um letting those ambassadors kind of have a bigger voice. um yeah It was actually very simple. I reminded them that on tours, we do not trail our tour guides. And whether we're sending them out with one family or 50 families, we actually don't know what they're saying. when they're out walking around that campus. And if you just let my digital ambassadors write a blog post or tweet or post on, you know, in 2025 now it might be Instagram or TikTok or Reddit or who knows, but back then it was it was blogs and Twitter and if and YouTube.

yeah

And like, you know, like at least you can see what they're saying. Because the second they walk out the door from the Welcome Center, you don't know what they're saying. Which one would you rather?

it. Yeah.

Because I'd rather know what they're saying and help them be able to shape their authentic story than, you know, just, you know, like pray that the training I gave them before they left on that tour, like, stuck. um And we know, like we want to layer some AI back into this, we know that the sources AI is most pulling from are Wikipedia, ah Reddit, and YouTube, top three sources.

but yeah yeah yeah

send your digital ambassadors out onto Reddit, maybe Wikipedia, but like certainly Reddit and YouTube and have them start creating content there because increasingly we know that prospective students are starting their journeys with AI recommendations, whether they want to or not, because all they have to do is Google and they have just started their journey with an AI recommendation taking over the top two thirds of that screen.

yeah

So all to say, right, maybe this is the one thing that like ah that Marcom leader can just kind of slide in there because you can um start to see how the the impact is going to like get exponentially bigger and bigger and bigger now that AI is is pulling from these sources.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that um that does require, you know, letting go of control.

Mm-hmm.

But what I always say is, well, while you're not out there empowering your ambassadors, the people who are excited to talk about this place and their experiences there, and who want to engage with the prospective students in like a human one-on-one way, I mean, those prospective students want to see be seen.

Yes.

you know They don't want to be fed a bunch of polished marketing materials.

Yeah.

They want to feel seen too. So if you're not doing any of that, trust me, the the naysayers are out there and you you can't control that.

yeah Yeah.

So at least be putting out the positive experiences and... and thoughts and you know get get away from... and then sure, like if they end up at your website, make it a really great experience. you know Make it feel like no other place.

Mm-hmm.

um I think we so there's so much fragmentation. It's like, where do we put the facts and the things that people need um versus these feelings, these gut instincts, these senses of this is a good place for me and my family can afford it or and i can get the aid I need or

Yeah.

And, you know, I'm going to be in a community that feels right for me and get the education I want and maybe the job I want. um It's just, I think it's, it's so complicated, but it's so important too.

yeah

You know, it's such an important um place. And I just hope that enough good ones um can survive and and keep fostering this lifelong learning and education that we need in our, you know, in our

Yeah.

in our people.

and it's not And it's not just the 17-year-olds graduating from high school. Like the number of adults that have some college but no degree is a much larger pool to pull from.

um

um ah You know, adults returning to education at the undergrad level is significant. And, ah you know, so an institution that maybe be historically served a more traditional undergrad population is um if we're not already starting to think about the other populations that we can start serving to overcome some of the maybe financial challenges that are alongside this demographic cliff that we are sitting on, um right? Like the time's today. If we haven't started thinking about it, the time is today to start thinking about it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I agree to it. You know if this can be from the top down even better, because then you've got leadership that's behind this and is, is empowering their teams um to take this stuff and run with it and not be afraid of, you know, and not be completely limited and in what they can do, but it's tough.

Right. Yeah. ah here Yeah.

It takes, it takes quite a leader these days, I think in higher ed.

Yeah. And it's a full organizational challenge, not just a Marcom one, of course.

Yeah.

right and That goes without saying.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

um What else would you, if you could go back and talk to younger Mallory, what else would you advise her on or or remind her about?

Hmm. You know, I think... I think I would remind me to ah not be afraid to say yes to things that seemingly come from nowhere. You know, like just land in your lap. Say yes to the things of that land in your lap, whether that's an opportunity to network with somebody that, you know, like we go to a conference, we walk into the lunchroom, And we look around and everybody looks the same. Our eyes are wide and we're like, oh crap, where are the people I know? Because now I'm in a lunchroom and i feel like I'm in high school again and I got to go find a table of people I know.

Yeah.

No. Go sit down at the table full of people you don't know because that's the person that you might need to meet that day that's going to completely change your life, right? Take –

no

do the thing that feels uncomfortable um and just say yes when an opportunity lands in your lap because you just never know where it's going to go. And as I think back and you know I know that there's been times I've taken that advice and times I've regretted not taking it, but I've never regretted doing it.

yeah

right And so there it is.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great advice. It's great advice for anyone. um It's advice I definitely have lived by when things have felt the most terrifying in terms of like what's coming next. I've just, so you can't, can't worry about that, but there will be no next if you don't say yes to the universe. And that's kind of how I phrase it.

Yeah.

It's just whatever the universe decides to present, because it will, if you're looking, Um, and if you go out or you engage with the world, it's going to present these things, these gifts, and you won't know if you don't say yes. And if I think about most of the good, great things in my life along the journey did come from saying yes. And nothing good ever came from sticking my head in the sand and, and, and hoping that, you know, nothing would change and everything would just be okay.

yeah And saying no.

And, um,

yeah And it's okay if you've got like the thing that like opens it up for you. Like for me, it's the podcast mic, right? I am able to go meet people at a much higher rate and I feel more comfortable doing it when I'm making that introduction through a podcast interview. I have a good friend in the industry like –

hu

His podcast mic is his camera. Like when he can go somewhere and start taking photos of people, that opens the conversation up, right? So maybe to like go back to some of the things we were talking about earlier, like it's it's maybe finding what that thing is that you love doing that you can bring with you. And, you know, so I can't bring a spin bike, unfortunately, on the airplane, But I can bring my podcast mic, right? And if that's what allows me to walk into that room, feeling a little more confident, feeling like I've got a way to start a conversation, well, now I've figured that out for myself and I'm going to have 20 times more conversations as a result than I would have otherwise.

Yeah, totally. i you know the the One of the most fun things I have done and my career and life is to start this podcast for exactly the reasons that you said. it gives me a reason to reach out to people that I'm just curious about and that I think,

Yeah.

we're going have a good conversation. There might be brand new ideas that come out of this conversation or just in the exchange of the conversation that might be helpful or interesting or useful to someone else. I don't know. i don't have a set plan or framework. Um, there's no agenda. And that's what I love about it. Um, because you just never know where the conversation is going to go. And i think it does also go back to curiosity, right? um I think we can get so insecure, always thinking about ourselves. What are other people thinking about us? And you know, nobody's thinking about us, uh, except ourselves. ninety percent of the top

Yeah. Sorry to say it, but yeah.

um

Yeah.

yeah so Number one, remember that you you are the one that's spending all the time. And number two, you know, It's a gift to be curious about other people.

yeah

um You know, it's and it's it's always, hate it when i when I do reach out to people and they're like, oh, I don't think I'd have anything interesting to share. I'm like, are you kidding me? Everyone has something interesting to share. You know, everyone does. And it's just like, that's the art of conversation.

Yeah. Mm-mm.

That's that's why we talk. our human is that connection that we all want and, and it's with other humans and we're not built to do this by ourselves. So uh, I love that. I hope that anyone listening really takes that to heart and starts their own podcast or just starts going out there and having new experiences and then writing about them or sharing, painting, exercising about it, whatever, like get out there and just be curious and don't wait. Um, don't wait, don't be scared. What's the worst that can happen?

That's it. I do have to remind myself of that all the time.

Right?

You know, i know when when someone listens to a podcast like an iPhone, it's like, oh, they've got it all figured out. Look, I don't take my own advice all the time. You know, like we are all human. We all make mistakes. We are all just trying our best every single day. i But like nothing bad has ever come of just giving it a go. I've certainly regretted it far less than the opposite.

Yeah. I mean, i can't, I, I, we will never know, right. We can't go back in time and run the parallel universe track and see how it could have gone if we hadn't run.

Loki Tracey is out there somewhere.

yes She is probably. I know. I think about all the different, I mean, every decision you make, right. Is there a split and is there like an alternate you living the other life?

who

um One thing i would love to ask you about, right. Just, you know A lot of people might be listening to this or reading it about it and and and watching and saying, well, that's great. you know These are two confident women who've gone out there and had success. Easy for them to say.

Mm-hmm.

um When I think there are so many people, right, that are coming into their careers, their or they've or they've been laid off. I mean, the job market is like a bloodbath right now, and there's a ton of people that are just feeling like, what's what's my worth? What's my value? Where do I fit? What do I do next? How do I get on people's radars? um And I just think you know you have sat in a position where people have either gotten on your radars or not. And I'm in a position now where I'm hiring and you know having to make decisions about the team. um And so i have I have thoughts on that that I think might be valuable for people listening, but I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.

From both perspectives, from maybe the person who is trying to put themselves out there more, um send the email. Actually, that that happened to me a couple weeks ago. um i got an the email out of the blue from someone I tangentially knew from the industry who said she was talking to Jamie Hunt recently.

huh

And Jamie's advice to her was just send the darn email. Like, like Just do it.

yeah

um And so she did. And then we had an incredible conversation and realized we have all of these things, right, and comment, blah, bla And now she is so on my radar. And she's not job hunting right now. She's very happy in her job and we're talking. She's in events and we're going back and forth. But like, she's like top 10 on my radar right now, right? Because she just sent the email. And so that helped us create this incredible relationship.

yeah

And now our two, you know, our two worlds can overlap and and the people in my network and the people in her network, like, wow. Who knows? But 10 years from now, I feel like this is really going to matter. And we're we're going to be able to help each other in some really significant way. I can like just feel the universe is telling me that.

Mm-hmm.

So from that side of the thing, you know, like I really think networking does matter, right? And I think that um especially if you're in the job hunt, like spending some time being rebuilding your network and and reconnecting with your network and leaning on your network. It comes back to like, we are human and we are people and and we want to connect with each other. um And I think that that's time really valuably spent because you you never know how right like She certainly didn't know I was going to be on a podcast two weeks later talking about her, but here we are.

Yeah.

right

Yeah.

So there you go. ah You never know.

yeah

um From the side of being someone who has built teams um and you know and and having to sift through hundreds of applications ah for you know single roles at all levels of the organization, um it can be really hard to stand out when you when you haven't um gotten that networking in right so How do you do it? i think that...

What

Sorry, I'm... Can you hear that in the background? It was very distracting for moment.

is that?

That's ah my dog itching herself.

airplane Oh, that's

And it just got so, I'm sorry, Tracey. It just got incredibly distracting.

good. Hey, we had a lawnmower through the first half of the last podcast.

Oh my Lord.

Don't worry about

Okay. I'll pick it back up from being on the managerial side, I guess.

it. Okay. inability

Okay. Okay. As someone who has i built teams and had to sift through hundreds of applications for a single role, um how do you stand out there? um

yeah

you know I think like a very tactical piece of advice is... ah do the research. And I hope that is somewhat obvious to listeners. But for me, that means understanding the job description and the key points in it. Oh, by the way, AI can help you with that.

Yeah. Yeah.

um Understanding what the organization stands for, what are their recent wins going on social, seeing what it is they're talking about. um What is the content that this organization is choosing to put on its website, homepage, whatever it might be? um Oh, by the way, AI can help you with that too.

now

um And then thinking about your own resume and your experiences um and you know making sure you're really deeply connecting, whether you know whether you're writing the cover letter writing recrafting your resume a little bit, right? Like I'm really a big fan of not just sending one CV out and like spraying it to all the companies, but actually intentionally crafting your bullet points so that it aligns to the role that you're looking to get.

Yeah.

Like, of course, you don't want to lie by any means, right? But like reframing things so that you are putting it into the words that the organization is using, because that is a signal of what matters to them.

yeah

um It takes a little more time to do that, but it really does. I've had to go through all these resumes and and you know application layers, et cetera. like it does like stand out. Like it really does help. Um, and especially if you don't know somebody at that organization, right? If you can't lean on your network to help you get some sort of introduction, um, I, I find the more you can tailor the better.

Totally. um And it's, you know, other I think it's so different, right? If you're just coming into the workforce and you're looking for that first job, but i think that's really tough. um because you might not have a lot of angle. So again, wherever you can really customize it and show that you were thoughtful and you were like, I think this, I think you're looking for me. And so let me, let me tell you why I think you're looking for me. Here's where, why I think I'm going to really excel at this position and then be able to grow in your organization. Here's where I, I think I can contribute value now. Here's where I think that could grow into and don't kind of just play it safe. Um, We're not in a situation where people are just trying to align checkboxes for a job. you know If anything, that is that is the work that AI is going to be taking. I think people are looking for someone who can add real value, who does you know align with the values of the of the company and the the person that's, you know, that's applying. um But I've seen some great success with candidates who, you know, there might not have even been a position for their skillset, but they knew that they were the right person for us.

Wow.

And, um this most We just hired a brilliant um associate creative director, and she just got on our radar and reached out in in ways that really demonstrated that she knew what she was doing when it came to marketing and brand and strategy. um So Danielle Rhodes just just joined us, and and I was like, well, that was a masterclass in like getting a job. And we we weren't even hiring for this position, but now we've created a position for the person, because of how she got on our radars and just made it, it was just like, we would be idiots not to say yes to this person. And this is, you know, everyone's looking for people that can immediately step in and add value. Even if you're having to learn new things and find your way, i think there's, um, there's a real people want people who can step in and really kind of take the bull by the horns and figure it out.

Yes.

And, um those Those checkbox kind of jobs, I don't think those exist much anymore. know.

Well, if you are lucky enough to be applying for a role that includes communications or creativity, I think you nailed it.

and Yeah.

Like this is your stage to create.

Your audition.

It's your audition. Put the mic in front of your mouth like and showcase that creativity.

Yeah.

i had I hired a a marketing director a few years ago. um Not because he sent a video in alongside his application, but like, you he sent a video in alongside his application. And guess what? Like through that video, he was able to actually convince me that we needed to be doing more with video and he was proving it in the whole exchange. Like that was not lost on me. right? And and he wound up being the best person for the job for a lot of different reasons.

Right. no

um But as somebody who I didn't know going into the process and was sifting through hundreds of applications, wow, he shot up to the top real fast because he put that extra effort in and helped to me understand how you know this other medium was really going to matter in this role that he was hoping to get hired for.

Yeah, it's, ah it's not, this is not complicated, right? And I, and I'll, I'll share it with with everyone listening. Again, one of the things I always ask um people who are interviewing for any job, whether it's more on the tactical side, or more on the creative side, like to me, creativity is is a key. talent that you've got to have, curiosity, you know, the ability to take ownership over things. And so I ask people, you know, what do you, what inspires you outside of work? What do you read? What do you look at? What do you do? what are you curious about? And I hate to say it, but there are a lot of times where people are like, oh, I don't really, i don't know, you know? and I'm like, wow, well, okay. I, you know, you're not someone that I want to bring into my very small company that wants to tap into everybody's creativity and, and curiosity.

Yeah.

and ability to innovate. And I also ask people now too, what are you most excited about when it comes to technology or AI? How are you using these tools? Even if it's outside of work, how are you experimenting yourself? How are you exploring? What are you reading about? And if I see, you know, or hear crickets in that kind of a question, it's another red flag for me that this is not someone that I want to bring into again, you know, a very small team, but, um,

yeah

I want people that are like, oh this and that, and show me the way you think, show me that creative thought matters to you, uh, to take the Morris line.

yeah

Um, but know hunger for home yeah,

The hunger for knowledge. It's full circle.

yeah. It's show it. Um, that's what people, I think that's where I think people are looking and, um, So if if you're not doing that actively, number one, I think do it because otherwise it's like, you're living half a life. um And there's always time. There's always time to just bring in a little bit of extra knowledge. I know some people are near not nearly as fortunate or privileged to be able to to carve out that time or have access to some of these things. um So I want to just express my understanding of that too.

yeah yeah.

But there are there are ways to bring this into your life, even in the smallest, most minor ways that I think are are beneficial for for all aspects of life, including the job search.

here

or the job searches. I mean, again, we're talking about a ah very privileged layer of, of employment and, you know, I appreciate that very much.

yeah

And I try to remind myself of to be appreciative of the work I get to do um all the time, all the time.

ah Yeah.

Mallory, any closing thoughts, ideas, messages you want to get out there to the listeners?

Gosh, we've covered so much. Uh, and i can't believe it.

Yeah.

We've covered so much ground. Um, you know, I think that At the end of the day, um being sometimes the only person in the room that feels like you're different or um feels like you're trying something new, like i and I do understand how hard that is because I have lived that. And... um

yeah

and you know, and and know that if you are that person, like you actually aren't alone because there are a lot of people like you. They're just in different rooms currently, but you you and you might have to go find them, but but you aren't alone. And so it comes back to community. It comes back to always having that hunger for knowledge and learning, um but just try the thing, right? I hope... That when somebody stops listening to this episode, that if nothing else, they have been inspired to just try something that that maybe they were afraid to have tried an hour ago um and and see what happens.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then let us know.

i Right.

then come find us and let us know.

Right. And also anybody listening, you know, I know Mallory Wood, I would love to hear what, how do you keep these sparks, you know, lighting in your lives or your careers from, you know, I mean, i'm i'm such a book. I have like a library. i mean, I buy them faster than I can read them. But the knowledge we can we can, the inspiration and knowledge we can gain from the world is is so abundant. um There's all you have to, you have to have that curiosity though. So whether it's, you know, going and grabbing a book that we talked about, or i list all the the resources that might come up on any podcast on helloadeo.com. There's a section about the podcast and every episode people mention things. And so I always always share those. and just start digging in. um And if you've got some like, wow, this is the thing, I go back to this resource to keep my fire burning and keep learning and keep growing, let us know. Because I think that the more we can share that with each other, the better. um And in the meantime, you know, get out there, just do it. Don't be scared. Even the people who you know, it's not easy for anybody. Uh, I'm all, every time I look at a, pick up a brush and get to a blank canvas, I will, I will share. i always run through my head. Oh, I, am I still able to paint? I mean, it's ridiculous. You know, every time I'm about to publish up a blog post or get up on a stage to give a talk, I think all the All the negative thoughts go through. All the urges to vomit happen. um It's not that I'm scared, but I'm definitely nervous all the time.

Yeah.

I think if you're not, it's because you're not actually trying something that you care about.

Mm-hmm.

So just embrace that it's that.

Completely agree.

That's why it matters because it's not going to feel comfortable. um That's the good part. So just lean in on that. Call it something else. Instead of saying, like, I'm about to you know pass out or throw up, just say, like, oh, I'm really excited right now.

i must care so much.

but This was really, yeah, really awesome.

about to pass out or throw up. No.

It might kill me. Oh, I mean, at the end of the day, we're all just we're all just people. It's beautiful, you know, but not nobody's perfect. Nobody wants that.

No.

No, and nobody believes it anyway. So on that note, thank you so much. It was a great conversation.

Thanks, Tracey.

i'm so excited. I hope your keynote goes great. Safe travels tomorrow. I hope you'll be sharing about what you talk about and just anybody that has an opportunity to work with you, um they're they're lucky and they're digging into the right places. So ah encourage them all to reach out to you.

Thanks.

and yeah.

Yeah. You can find me on LinkedIn.

Continue on the journey. I'll be sharing ah links to all the places you can find Mallory. um But in the meantime, keep having fun and good for you being on this great adventure. Congratulations on your past successes. And mainly I just hope it's super rewarding going forward.

Thanks, Tracey. It was really great to be on this side of a podcast and I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and getting a chance to reconnect with you.

Yeah.

So I appreciate it.

Me too. All right. Well, let's do it again sometime soon.

All right. all right

All right.