Tracy Gosson: Surviving Stage 4, Redefining Everything

Welcome everybody. This is another episode of Escape Velocity. And today I am talking with Tracy Gosson, who is the founder Sagesse, which is a brand and marketing agency. She's been doing this work for a long time.

I'm going to go

i would say her specialty has always been in places, um branding and marketing places, and works with a lot of nonprofits. which we can dive into that and the state of that in this conversation. But I also want to mention that Tracy has experienced a battle, an experience with cancer that has, you know, talk about defining escape velocity in terms of breakthroughs and experiences that you go through that, that change you.

ahead and that huge challenge. I'm going to go ahead and start with the next question. I'm going ahead and see that has huge challenge. I'm going to go ahead and start with the next question.

um And i always I always say, you know, change is going to happen to you or by you, um generally both. And getting cancer is something that you don't necessarily choose. ah No, you don't. And so I want to talk about that. Welcome to the podcast, Tracy. And um yeah, I mean, do you want to add any kind of, yeah, you're the Tracy without the E.

Tracy without the E. I'm Tracy without the E.

I'm the Tracy with the E.

Yeah,

I will say, you know, we've known each other for a long time. um We've worked in similar orbits.

you used to be my neighbor and I didn't even know it.

We were neighbors. um i I will never forget. i think you commented on ah when I wrote that podcast or I wrote that blog like 11 years ago, Baltimore City, you're breaking my heart.

Oh yes, yes. About your, yeah, yeah.

And that went viral. And i I recall reading some comments where you were like, well, I kind of agree with her, but I would never commit professional suicide like this. and I was like, oh my God.

I just, I remember direct messaging you because ah I think the way I became familiar with you was back in the, you know, when Twitter was a good place.

Yeah.

days. um You know, and that was, I was like, oh my gosh, they're like right around the corner from me. What the hell are they doing over there? And I, you know, had my business in my row house too.

Yeah.

And, and you wrote that. And I know that people were coming after you, particularly some people at the city.

yeah

And i I think I sent you some direct messages like, i don't want to be all potty mouth here, but like F them, don't worry about it. You know, they don't have the power that they think that they do. You'd say and do whatever you want. And You know, they may not like it, but they need to get to work if they don't like it.

Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, a friend, a good friend of mine, I remember texted me too. And he said, are you going to fight with the mayor? was like, Oh my God, this blew up.

Yeah.

Um, but Hey.

Yeah. Well, because you said something that a lot of people were saying privately and still today say privately, but, you know, they don't want to get the crosshairs of whatever. And now it's way more. charged around all sorts of stuff, just beyond politics. So.

Well, you know, that that's a ah really interesting topic, right? just saying Just saying what you think and what you feel without fear um of of being, of sort of the mob coming after you. From many, many different sources, that mob can come for you. And you can get labeled and pigeonholed and attacked and silenced or have your, you know, your career ruined. You can have your life ruined if you, yeah.

Yeah, ostracized, cut off from resources and access. Absolutely. Yep.

And, you know, I just, I don't like living it in that place of fear in my life. And um so I will continue to try to say what I think um and what I feel. And you're welcome to disagree with me. And on that note, isn't it, isn't it?

Well, that's not how we learn and grow, right? Right. That I have a conviction about something because this is my learned experience. This is what I've learned along the way. This is what I've read. And I want to be challenged by you. Cause I always say to people like, you know, you're so confrontational. you know, they would say to me, I'm like, I'm not confrontational. Like, this is where I stand. Like come back and push back at me because want to, maybe you'll change my perspective. I want to learn something. Right. and so that's not how politics is now. But I always said, you know, you should have the same convictions about your position that I do. You should stand that firmly. So convince me otherwise I'm here.

Yeah, I think you know I'm a big believer in changing your mind is okay. um Thinking you know everything is not okay. and they're you know And this world is full of a lot of different people and experiences and points of view and perspectives that are all valid, um at least in the sense that they have a right to to share them and share their thinking and their perspective. And it's only through the exchange of those things that we can grow and get better and make and change things for the better. um Otherwise, what will happen is people will just take advantage of the silence and change things for the worse. Whoever is the, has the most power and is the loudest. We'll use that to bully their way into more of that, in my opinion.

Really? Is that, have I seen that happen somewhere? I don't know, maybe I'm just, maybe I'm just, maybe I'm just making that up.

i can't No, I don't see that happening anywhere, anywhere. No, and it's so it's one of the reasons why I do get so um so mad at at the do-gooders out there because they're too careful. They're too quiet. um You know, it's like, oh, you don't want to – no, not you, not you.

Yeah, I never had that problem. I was never accused of that ever. I mean, I would have board members, i would have board members come to me and like,

but

You know, you might want to dial that back. Like when I, you know, live Baltimore was like my biggest entree into Baltimore city. I worked in film and television before that. Right. And so I bought a house in the city.

Yeah.

ah renovated it myself and I was like, Schmoke was mayor. Kurt Schmoke was mayor. This is the late nineties. And I was like, what, I, what, what is going on here? Like, why why don't people want to live on the water? Like, this is kind of beautiful here. Why is it so cheap? What? what's going like, is there something I don't know? you know, cause I wasn't from Baltimore. Is it like dead bodies all over the heart? Like, what is the issue? And then you realize it's just like, Oh, you know, is a former mayor O'Malley used to say is a city has an issue of pathological modesty. Right.

and

And so, um, I thought, well, we just need to talk about it more positively and talk about these neighborhoods. And when that organization, was launching and i interviewed for it. And I had a job, I used to edit TV commercials. Okay. Producers video on television. health That was my career. I didn't do TV commercials. And so, um, I'm interviewing for this job. I'm like, I didn't even know what a nonprofit was. Right. So they're asking me all this question. I came, I had my notes. I was like, Hey, here's what the mayor should do. He should do this and this, and they should stop doing this. And everyone in that interview was like, um, what, what? I'm like, yeah I brought a 10 point list. Like these are all the things that you should be doing.

yeah

And, uh, And so then when I got called back for the third interview and I, I was so irritated by the process, cause I was like, who does gets called for their third interview? Like just, is he going to hire somebody? Cause I just didn't come with all this knowledge about how this whole system worked and all that.

No baggage.

And I'll never forget this gentleman. His name was Charles Marker, African-American businessman. He's passed now, but it was him and the executive director, Sherry Kushani, cause it was at CPHA citizens planning and housing. And um he said, um look, he goes, we really liked, we we just love everything, like your attitude, what's going on, the work that you've done. He's like, you just need to like, just dial it down, just just a notch or two. He's like, you'll do great. He's like, you're going to have to pull back a little bit. And I was like, okay. I'm like, I don't even know what that means, but okay. And they hired me and I was like, okay, what do I do? And Cheryl was like, okay, well, you have this much amount amount of money to pay you. And then for anything else that you want to do or hire somebody, you you have to go raise it.

Mm-hmm.

I was like, how do you do that? Well, you write for grants. And I'm like, okay. And that was, I was totally thrown into the bar. Now I'm insulated because I'm part of a bigger nonprofit. Right. And we spun off maybe four years later, but then I got into that game and I was like, ah so basically I'm writing term papers, you know, I'm begging the able foundation.

and

I want to do X, Y, Z. it would take you so long. And then you'd get the letter and they'd be like, yeah, no, we love what you're trying to do, but no. And I went on this path for several years. I'm like, this is bullshit. Like you can't run a business like this. Right. And, um, and so, you know, you start hiring people and people are buying houses and getting married. I'm like, i think people's livelihoods I'm responsible for. And so I spent several years developing ah what you would now call a sustainable business model for a nonprofit. But I was like, we need to earn our own income. All right. Cause this, I don't want like MNT banks, philanthropic dollars. want their marketing dollars. Like how we get that? And so I built this whole system of like, okay, we had a retail facility, a mortgage loan officer would be there. a real estate agent would be there and they all paid for that benefit. Um, we did continuing education courses with real estate agents. When I left that organization, 45% of its income was self-generated. That, that was a game changers. No, no one had ever done that before, but that gave me freedom.

Yeah.

Like I wanted to, you know, do a paid advertising campaign in Washington, DC about living in Baltimore.

yeah

golden Now, Goldsecker Foundation gave us some money, but in general, like the city of Baltimore, no one's giving you money for that. No one's going to pay for an ad campaign, but I could use that money. And then it further positioned us to say, oh, okay, for all you apartment home inspectors, mortgage lenders, real estate agents, you want to reach people that want to live in the city? I'm now your gatekeeper because I'm the one advertising out of market. So if you're not partnering with us, you're not in the game. And so that was how we built this structure.

i

it was amazing.

do you Now, this was a while ago. Do you think it's changed or do you think Baltimore is still suffering from that pathological modesty, which is preventing it from investing in its it's best and and in focusing on its worst?

So I left Baltimore several years ago. You know, and here's what I've said to people now there. So like people my age generation. So I did that. um That was, you know, close 30 years ago when I started with Baltimore and did that job. And so I say to people now, like, it's time for the next generation, right, to come in and move forward.

yeah

Because when I came in, There were, it was like the Don Hutchinson's of the world at GBC. And I was like, you gotta go, right? Your perspective is so archaic.

yeah And our world has changed.

And so, yes.

A lot.

And I think from a, you know, there's a power and diversity piece in Baltimore. mean, I came from Syracuse, New York.

huh

It was like, why do you Whiteville? I mean, let's be real. You know, Baltimore was a huge cultural shift for me and made me see things that I had never seen and struggled with how to perceive a lot of those things, you know, it Baltimore constantly challenges you always. Um, but in a good way, right? If you're doing it right, you're, you're, you're changing a little bit yourself.

Yeah.

Um, so the, the, the city now it's, you know, the problem with cities and cities that size is it's the economy. If you don't have money, you can't do anything, right? You can't fix quality of life. You can't fix potholes and, you know, make these parks better. And so there are a whole sector of people that are willing to pay that urban premium, right? Because they love that quality life. But if you can't hold and fix their basics, like they though though they will have had enough. How many more times is my car going to get broken into? And so when you don't have a strong employee base and you know, everything is built off property taxes.

Yeah.

I mean, there's a whole. Line of thinking about how you restructure the property taxes and in Baltimore city, you know, um, you tax actually the the property and not the building, you know, so then absentee landlords, they're not paying less because their house looks like a piece of shit. You're paying the same thing as everybody else.

yeah

So it gets. to be this whole foreclosure issue. I mean, Baltimore is so complicated, but also it has so much potential, right? I mean, you can do anything you want there. i went there, I was married at the time when I went there, my ex-husband did morning radio. I mean, we, our marriage ended live on the radio. He was just such a jerk. Okay. So I had to totally make myself there. And that's the beauty of Baltimore. Like you can do that. You want to do that? You want to run for political office? You're engaged in that? You can. Like, it's it's a place where there's not like, i mean, they're still going ask you where you went to high school. But, you know, it's not so entrenched like, like what's your name? Who's your family? yeah you You can make your way. Now, there's people like that that are always going to kind of rise to the top.

Yeah.

I think Baltimore is great that way.

Yeah. Um, this this is a good kind of backdrop into, you know, is she but how to tell, explain to me how you moved into, to run your own company, just transition.

Oh, so, yeah. so let's see. i was, uh, I would say like the seven year market at Baltimore. Um, mean, those kinds of jobs, those aren't jobs. Okay. You're running a nonprofit or you're the founder of a company. That's a life. and that that That is your life.

Yeah.

And I loved that. It never felt like a job. Right. Cause it just, I was free to do whatever I want. You know, if I could raise the money and pull together the partners, like it was lit limitless. I came up with this ad campaign once we ran in DC, um, when like George Bush was president and there was a whole thing about how and NSA was tapping American phones, you know, without, so I did an

Oh yeah.

Okay. i read an ad in DC that said it had like a, a photo stock photo image of George Bush on the phone. And the headline was like, we already know you're talking to people in Baltimore. Why don't you just move here anyways? I mean, it was hysterical, right? And i I mean, I can only get a little buy, but the PR that I got out of that, I mean, it was picked up by the Chicago Sun-Times.

amazing.

And so we used to do kooky stuff like that.

Yeah.

And, you know, then all of a sudden you get a call from somebody in DC and I was like, I said to the board, was like, if our taxes get audited, I'm sorry, i apologize.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, you had the opportunity to do that kind of stuff. And so I just was feeling like i can just hit this reset button every year. no one is ever going push me out of here. No one's going to say I have to go. This thing is, I can run this on coast and do just fine. And I thought, is this, is this going to be the definition of my life? Like that that this is what's when they write my op-ed, this is going to be it. This was it. And I'm like, I, I don't, I don't think, I think that there's got to be something more left in the tank. And so I, I left, I quit. And, you know, i mean, I gave him a long-term notice and John, my part, my partner who, you know, he's like old school CEO.

then Yeah.

And he's like, oh, you're going to quit without a job, without already another job. I'm like, yeah, maybe you don't understand what it's like to do a job like this because there is no bandwidth to think about anything else but this job. And, um, and so I did, and I didn't know what I was going to do. So I just sort of, you know, cause it was all, I used to be in the paper and the media all the time. It was ridiculous. Like I sat with myself for two years and I said, okay, I am no longer going to be invited to things. No one in the media is going to ask my opinion. i am going to become persona non grata as soon as I leave this job. And I better be okay with that. And that's exactly what happened.

Right.

And I was okay with it. I did in my head and I thought, what's my worst case scenario? And I really, really thought about it. said, okay, my worst case scenario is I can't find another job. um I go to back to bartending, you know, that I did a hundred years ago and in walks my former board president and I have to wait on him like that.

right yeah

that would be ill. And I was like, all right, if that's the worst I can come up with, because I had an apartment in my house. I'm like, I know I can always make my mortgage. And so i was like, if that's worst case scenario, I'll take it. I'm going. And so I pushed myself off the cliff because no one else was ever going to do it.

Yeah.

And so, you know, then the phone rang and this, that, and other thing and different jobs and opportunities. And, and this one, this gentleman that I used to work with in Baltimore city, Stacy span, who's guy who went to Howard County. And he's like, I need you, all this affordable housing stuff we're doing in Howard County. I was like, okay. And actually, i forgot about this. Yes, mayor Governor O'Malley, they tried to hire me at the state, and they wanted me put on this project, this BRAC realignment, this base realignment thing. And I went back and forth with these interviews. And, you know, they take long. And so I was like, okay, I signed this contract with Stacey. And they're like, okay, so... you know, we're ready to hire. I'm like, oh yeah, that's that's too late now. I got to this contract. And they're like, we have a pin for you. Do you know what this means? Like in government, they have a pin for you. Like they've said, it's so hard to get a pin that says, we're going to hire this person.

Anthony

It's gone through all the paperwork. There's a pin, there's a number and that spots for you. And I was like, oh, I'm not taking that. And then everyone was like, do you know how hard that is? I'm like, no, I don't know anything about that, but...

Brown.

And then I would see O'Malley at events and he'd like yell at me from across the room. He's like, I heard that. Who's the lieutenant governor? that Anthony. He's the state's a attorney guy now. um He's like, I heard that you met with Anthony and blah, blah, blah.

and

And you're not going to. And I was like, do we need to yell this across the room? Like, that's not necessary. Please don't embarrass me. And so that was it.

Well, I mean, now that I'm more involved in politics, um I will say that that there does tend to be a a group of – a perspective that a lot of people have, especially the elected officials themselves,

Yes. Yes.

um that elevates their status beyond public servant. um

Oh yeah.

And you know elected officials are public servants.

Power brokerage.

so I find that to be an interesting dynamic. once Once people get a lot of power, maybe they lose track of who they're supposed to be helping.

Yeah. Well, I think you're starting to see the real other side of it, right? How things really work at a community level, at a

Yeah.

that engagement level between kind of issue and legislation and like how things make that leap. And there are the way that things are done and how they kind of have to be done.

Yeah.

It's a little like, Oh, I get it. You know, lawyers are always involved and it always comes down to, you know, cause I've been at that table and I'm not the one saying this, but people are part of a team and the conversation is like, okay, here's the candidates that you need to donate money to.

yeah

And here's kind of what you should do. mean, I had a contract, not with the state, but with an entity in in the state of Maryland. And I was kind of told, um you might want to consider donating the maximum to that campaign because it might matter if your contract gets renewed.

yeah

And then I did. And it was the biggest check that I ever wrote for something like that. And I was told later, yeah, your girl did the right thing. And you know part of me was like, ugh.

Yeah. Pay to play. um And we pretend that it's not, but it is an excrementally So now, um, with the way that laws have changed, um,

Oh yeah. Cause there's so many like kind of screens that you can hide behind.

yeah, there's just, i mean, ah that, that whole, uh, what did Trump do?

Yeah.

He sold some, some bullshit, uh, crypto thing, you know? And I'm like, do we all not see this as just a way for China to China, like buy him? Um,

Oh, well, I mean, the you the United States is for sale right now. You just name your price.

It's already sold.

You know, yeah people having dinner with him at Mar-a-Lago and it's $100,000 a pop.

I mean, it's

And, you know, it's like, where's that money going?

it Yeah.

mean, were yeah, for my my health, yeah, my health with him is I just read the headlines to know, are the bombs coming?

ah Talk about capitalism. Right.

You know, I don't want to get into it because it's i'm not I'm not giving any of my life to that.

No, and I think that's um but that's been my advice to a lot of people. A lot of people are struggling right now um like with mental health around what's happening.

Yeah, i sure. Yeah?

And this is this is capitalism eating itself, right? This is like, it's just, it's all about money and power and greed and corruption. And it's just one full display. um And a lot of people are struggling. And I'm like, look, at the end of the day, I mean, Focus on what you can actually control. um Focus on what actually matters in your life. And yeah, I mean, do what you got to do when you got to do it. But in the meantime, don't let it, don't let it destroy you. um Don't let these people.

You said, yeah, you said something in another podcast that I was like walking when I was listening to and I was like, oh my God, exactly. You said, and this is the thing that I have said, this is the last desperate gasp of these old white men for power, trying to hold onto it. Because I said, what was it like three years ago? It was the first time in the U.S. population had the largest percentage of non-white births, right?

Yes. Yes.

That's the horizon and they are scared shitless.

Yeah, that's not changing.

And this is, this whole thing is this last grasp of power. I mean, that you, yes, but you look at the communities that you live in.

Yeah, they are going to die. Mortality is, they have not solved mortality.

Right? I mean, it's not the, um, what you see in media, but look at the stand in your own community and look around.

yeah

And if you're telling me that you see nothing but white people around you, you either live in some really strange place or you're not paying attention because that's not how things operate now.

also Also, yeah it's not all white people standing around and it's also not assholes all standing around.

yeah

It is nice people. It is people that genuinely care about each other, that genuinely want the best for their neighbors and their community and their families.

yeah you um

And what the what is right outside our doors and in most parts of this country and the world are people who want who want good and who want to help and who want everyone to be better and okay.

yeah

And um so, yeah, good luck with this. It's ugly, but it will, ah it's not sustainable.

No, no, no, it's not. So I just, I was, i was like, oh my, when I heard you say that, I was like, yes, I'm totally down with that. I mean, I've heard so many things on some of your different podcasts and, you know, I'm i'm late to the podcast game, right? Cause I don't have much time of like building and renovating houses. It's ridiculous. All the things I'm getting myself involved in.

You are busy.

But when this, after, yeah, after this last election, I was like, Oh, I had always had a morning routine about the news. i'm like, yeah, no, that's dumb. I can't, I don't want any of this shit sticking to me. And so I started to turn to podcasts a little bit more and, um you know, going back and kind of listening to your, you know, young archive. I know you haven't been doing this very long, but just some really interesting things. And, you know, some professional things are interesting. The woman talking about email I thought was so cool. And I'm like, yes, email's not dead. That's what I thought.

Right. It's not.

but just different people's perspectives about kind of how they're thriving and where they're thinking, their point of view.

It's not.

And it's like, I think it's, you read all these things now, right? What's happening post COVID and and we're still so isolated, right? We got into that mode and somebody wrote a piece, I think in the New York times the other day, you know what we need? We need more parties, right? We need to get people together more and we need to be having fun.

Yeah.

And just listening to some of your podcasts, I was like,

Yes.

Oh yeah, these are, these are like interesting people that like I would want to sit down and and be at a dinner party with. How cool.

Yes. I miss, ah you know, like that's, and and that's all around us. we We can go out and do that and and have those experiences and those exchanges.

here

And those are the things, and those are the people I want to be talking to. You know, I think something between COVID and then just the internet and Twitter and media and the noise and the constant barrage of it, it makes us feel like our world is so big and we can get here from all these different voices, but none of it's personal.

and you just feel like a lot of business travel,

Right. None of it's really personal. And, you know, when you have it even exchanges with, you know, the person that's that's working at the grocery store to having dinner and conversation with someone that you don't know, but, you know, you're curious enough to find out what makes them tick and what they care about.

okay

Those are all things that to me are, you know, ah a great. part of the human condition. The human condition is not to make a lot of money and, and, you know, have the most followers on Twitter and don't know, just so much bullshit. Um, that is not, yeah.

ah whom I'm trending. I trending?

Yeah.

yeah

Trust me. You don't want to trend.

My personal brand.

Um, if

don't i don't care about any of that.

I know it's, it's,

But you're so right. Like always say, know, I feel like when I'm having a bad day or I'm just, you know, like you feel overwhelmed, man, just that stupid conversation with somebody in the grocery store, like, Hey, I really like your sweater. Like I i now make a very conscious effort to have these very,

yeah

kind of would would seem in insignificant in significant comments and kind of engagement with people because it's just like, oh, look, we're human, like we're connected. And and that I think has so much value in making you feel grounded.

It is the easiest, freest, most generous thing you can do. is to give that to other people throughout your day. And, you know, Nancy, I was talking with Nancy Lyons. We were, we were talking about how, um, yeah, or we're talking about how being, uh, being queer, ah coming up in the eighties coming of age in the eighties and into the nineties, um, as, as lesbians, you know, we were like, fuck it.

Yes. Your BFF, I listen that too.

We're going to have to figure out how to have our own fun and make our own way. Um, And nobody's going to tell us how we should be or are supposed to be because, they you know, ah it was not a very good time to to be that. um And so, you know, now today kind of facing where, you know, everyone's being treated like the the way the gays were treated in the 80s. If, know, pretty much if you're a decent person, you're like a piece of trash. um If you're different in any way, shape or form. right you've just You're just being devalued constantly and told that you don't matter and that and threatened and scared. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, people don't like that because it forces them to look at themselves, right?

Oh, yeah.

Well, they're different. Well, you know, am I different? Do I not fit into, I mean, you can boil so much of human nature down to it's people's insecurities.

um

It's, it's, this it's, it's, it's these kind of core pillars, but yeah, i mean, I remember, I mean, i'm worse we're, we're similar age, right?

oh yeah

I mean, I remember that.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then people would come out and you'd be like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Anyway, so like what I was saying, blahh blah, blah, blah.

yeah Yeah.

was like, I don't care, you know? And then people started making a big deal out of it. I'm like, well, she's not like hitting on me. She's not trying to make me gay. I mean, she's pretty clear that like, yeah, she's not interested in me at all. Like, why do I care? Oh,

That whole indoctrination thing, we were laughing about it with, ah with higher eds.

yeah

If higher eds were really so good at indoctrination, Uh, we wouldn't be in the position we're in today with them.

It would be nothing but Sarah Lawrence's everywhere.

Yeah, clearly they weren't very good at it. Um, but I do think that, uh, you know, the the other thing, uh, someone was, was talking about recently was just like, if you really look at this group of evildoers, uh, you know, they're a bunch of losers, honestly. They're like, they're the guys that have always been sort of pissed off that they're not invited and nobody's, you know, they're just sort of like, wah. And they managed to get, um get away with a lot of bullshit for a long time. And now they're trying to leverage that power um in a way that you would describe like in a very insecure person doing so.

I grew up with three older brothers, so i you know, and none of my brothers were like that. Everyone was just more confident than the other. and so you just look at some of this behavior, like small dick behavior. Okay.

Yeah.

That's what it is. That's

Yeah. Small dick energy for sure. um

what it is. Especially when they're driving a cyber truck. that's That's micro.

oh

but but

don't even get me started on the cyber truck.

Dumpster on wheels.

But I will, I will, I will say, you know, I do think that the people who are still kind of raw, raw for, for this whole shit show that we're going through right now, I do think our um they've just been in a situation where they've seen a lot of things that were intended to be good things become corrupted, become stagnant, become ineffective, and nobody's doing anything about it.

girl

So there is a notion of like, well... things do need to change. I would hope it wouldn't have had to happen this way.

sure

um And this is not the way to do it. But there is a an argument to be made that that a lot of this stuff isn't working right now and does need to be changed. um So I think that's kind of how we ended up in this situation to large degree.

Yeah, and and I also think there's a ton of people in this country that are still pissed off that some black guy made it to the White House and why the hell am I still here?

Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that there, and then every time they see, you know, anybody else who's like, well, you know, like, oh, fucking like Ellen DeGeneres, you know, is she good to be some, big and the minute that the story comes out, oh, she's a meanie. Um, you know, it was, everybody's very quick to like, oh yeah, let's get rid of that.

yeah Yeah.

Um, but yeah, I, I, my dad always,

let Let's just wipe away 30 years of her career and you know all the good that she did. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you know, there is ah somebody mentioned Kevin Spacey the other day

My former neighbor in Baltimore.

and Yeah. I mean, but Baltimore, we he would stop into the gallery where I have painting. I'm always like, well, why doesn't he buy something? um But I met him at an opening and an interesting guy. You know, we talked about Shakespeare. but He's been exonerated, I believe, from a lot of the things he was accused of um now that it's all panned out. But that we don't wait to make our opinions based on that whole process of of right and wrong.

yeah

And we just pass judgment very quickly. And so,

The way that you're, you know, the media is not, they're certainly not objective, you know, like they're judge and jury.

no.

Right. i mean, I, you know, my, I started my career in the media and I look at it now and I'm like, this is awful.

Well, they want the headlines.

You know, this is not, this is not news because news used to be balanced.

Right.

Now it's all opinion. Right. It's a panel of people or even whatever the evening news is, you know, you're on CNN or your Fox. It's so much opinion driven. mean, if you actually want news, the only thing if you can watch is PBS news hour. That's it

Yeah. Well, because just news does not get the attention that all of the the judgment and, and um yeah, I mean, it's judgment. That's what gets ah that gets the attention and gets the headlines.

Yeah. It doesn't get your indignation fired up, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Like, yeah.

yeah yeah

yeah

Yeah, I mean, look we are a we are a byproduct of what the computers have figured out and these algorithms have figured out that gets right to our lizard brain faster than anything else. And that's that's anger and and fear. So, you know, the old if if it bleeds, it leads. Yeah.

ye

it's It's true. And we're being manipulated by all of that every day. And so I do kind of hope there is a reckoning around just like unplugging from all of this and getting back to smaller community focused attention and what you know what we're directing our attention towards and stop letting it go towards all of It's so manipulated.

Yeah, being intentional about it. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. it's so manipulated

I think it's awesome.

okay

Like it just, if you even look at the Baltimore banner, right? Like they are cutting a path, um, that has uncharted waters and they're having great success with it.

yeah

And like, I don't even live there anymore, but I subscribe to it cause I want to support them. Right. And they're growing and they're doing really well.

Yeah.

And they're showing that, you know, you don't have to be some massive conglomerate to own a local news publication that has quality information that people want. Yeah.

Yeah. And you, everything doesn't have to be a hit piece. Everything doesn't have to be a an attack or a defense or a position or an opinion. It actually can just be, news and it doesn't all have to be about horrible stuff.

course yeah

I mean, I was just, ah I'm going to talk to Susie Dunn on the podcast, the fat the founder of Fishbowl, hopefully in May. And, you know, there is just, I like what's, I like what's emerging or what has been there and is giving, getting getting a little more room now around those lines. But, you know, I do want to talk about what, um ah how you have how you have changed, um, in your life and, and business and all of it through going through your cancer diagnosis and your very scary battle. Um, and I don't even like using the word battle. I mean, you just, just, yeah, yeah.

Full on war baby was a full on war. Well, first it started with the hair cause now we're just going with mother nature here.

And,

um so I'll tell you, um, and and I'll share some things, uh, my tips, particularly to women about healthcare. Um, and ah so I'll start with this as a woman. you are very likely to be dismissed by doctors for whatever your issue are. And if you are a woman of color, you can add another 30% onto that. Okay. my thing is, if you have an issue that has lasted more than two weeks, get your ass to the doctor. That's what you have healthcare care for. And you push and you push until you get the answers that you are comfortable with. So I'm going to start with that. And then I'm going to talk about, because I had ovarian cancer. So here was my situation. This is 2019. I'm working on two very big projects, very stressful working with two women, two different projects. And, um, this whole women working with each other, helping each other. yeah These two were not them. Okay. These were two nightmare projects. And you know, in my small view was look, it's my company. I've taken this contract. i need to see this through and that way.

Right.

Now, now I know, oh you know what? I don't like how this is working. We're going to tally up on the back of napkin where we are hours wise. And, um, you can have some of this money back and we're done.

Yeah. See you later.

yeah

Yeah.

Thanks. Then good luck. And you can have all these assets. These are yours. But at the time I was like, no, no, no, I got to do this. I got to finish through. So I was struggling because I wasn't feeling well. right. It was really tired. And, uh, you know, I was perimenopausal at the time. So I'm writing a lot of stuff off to that. I had this bloating that was like, you know, I would call it like my food baby.

Yeah.

I'm like, Oh, it's just so weird. And, um, here's my symptoms for ovarian cancer. Uh, I felt fuller a little quicker after I ate. Um, I had bloating, uh, um,

Mm-hmm.

I had my GI was off. Nothing like extreme just wasn't normal. Nothing, no, nothing was like, oh my gosh, heart palpitation, nothing. This is the thing about ovarian cancer. So the the signs were very, very subtle. um And the other thing is i I've never had like acne, but my face was breaking out and I wrote this stuff off to perimenopause.

and

I don't know. It's not even like the any doctor tells you what's going on, right?

Right. Home roads.

And so all this stuff finally gets done.

Right.

I go to my doctor who, um, my primary care in Baltimore and this guy I've been with for a long time. And he's like, Oh, all, but he's all very cool. Right. Cause he's like, well, he said, you know, we haven't done this C125 test in a long time, which is a, it's a potential marker for ovarian cancer, but it's not a definitive test. It's not like the PSA test for prostate cancer. It could work.

Right.

Doesn't work for everybody. Uh, cause I had an ovarian cyst many, many years ago. He's like, Oh, let's send this in. Okay. And so, um Friday um on the golf course. Okay. like to play golf, golfing my two guy friends. I'm on the fourth hole phone rings. I'm like, Oh, it's my doctor. I'm going to take this, you know? Hi. Uh, hi, hi, hi. He's like, uh, normally I wouldn't tell you this on the phone. He's like, but, uh, you have ovarian cancer. ah was like, what, what? he's like, yeah. He's like, I just want to tell you. Cause it's Friday. I was like, okay. I hung up on the phone. I looked to my two friends. I was like, yeah, I have to go. have cancer. I mean, you're just like, it's literally as if someone just hit you over the head and um I made two phone calls.

yeah i can I can't imagine.

like for Yeah.

Yeah.

My partner's who is actually in Florida at his boss's funeral, who died of glioblastoma and my neighbor across the street, Dr. Carol Miller, shout out to Dr. Carol Miller, who's at St. Agnes, who's she's an oncologist and her. And I was like, Caroline, talk to you immediately. have cancer. I mean, and my phone rings. mean, this is a woman. She's a big deal. She drops the phone immediately. She's like, what? And so I go and get a scan of all all this stuff. I get the CD. I come over to her house. I always kept one laptop that had a CD ROM in it. Cause you never knew. and I was like, we can look at this. And so, uh, she's like, do you want me tell you what I really see? Or just giving her a view? like, no, give it all to me. She's like, okay. You have uh, like a, like an eight inch tumor and an 11 inch tumor and the right here and here and here. She's like, yeah, she's like, you' you you're stage three, at least I was like, but I know I'm like, what?

wow

And for me personally, thank goodness John was away because I was just like, I didn't ah know how to process this. Right. and so my rule in business has always been somebody does something that piss me off. I let it sit for 24 hours. I don't do anything. I don't react the next day. So I was like, all right, this is going to need like 72 hours. Okay. I was going to need a little longer for this one. And so you go through the whole, like why me and blah, blah, blah. And, um, and so I came out, of you know, by Monday, Tuesday, I was like, okay, um I'm on, I'm online. I'm Googling it. I'm like, okay, I got to do this. This is that. And the other thing. And so it just starts and it moves fast. This is the thing about cancer. this you Time is not on your side, right? And you have to make a lot of really big decisions very quickly.

Yeah. Right.

So I'll say it's like May 4th and my CE-125 825. So for a woman, it shouldn't be over 35. Now for some women, it can say, oh, it's 10 and you've got stage four cancer. So it doesn't, this is the thing. It's not a definitive test. doesn't work for everybody. It's a protein marker.

Right.

like you know, meet this doctor, that doctor. And I already been at Mercy Hospital. And my God, I cannot say enough about Mercy. Baltimore gets accolades for Johns Hopkins. Mercy, I'm telling you, if you want to know how good a hospital is, you find out how the people that are not doctors, how happy are they? The techs, the nurses, the people that take the trash out of the hospital rooms. Are these people happy? Because if they're happy, that's a great place to be. And Hopkins,

That's great. That's a great point.

Hopkins doesn't really check all those boxes. So, and I wanted to go, i I said to John, I was like, I feel like I have to go to Hopkins for a second opinion. It's right down the street. I mean, this is the thing about the Northeast in general. Your next second opinion is down the street, down the road, next town over.

Right.

And so I went there and I was shocked by how poorly, you know, they were just kind of like, okay, yeah. hi here you are. Here's how we do. This is how we treat this. I'm like, What? Like, do you dont want to know like my history? What have? Like, no, this is what we do. was like, okay, I'm not going So I went to Mercy and so my world comes to a screeching halt. Everything that you know, that you're involved in, it just stops.

Let me let me just back up really quick, though, Tracy.

Right.

When you said you went and got a scan, what kind of scan did you get?

Yeah. CT scan.

And and is that something that women should be able to get their doctor to prescribe?

No, you don't want that. No. You can't get, you can't get that. It's very expensive. Um, cause you take, ah you, you, uh, it's contrast, you drink this stuff. And so they scan you now you can like MRIs. Um, the MRIs are even more expensive, but no, no doctor hospital is going to pay for a scan or give you a prescription for it. Now you can go to these places and get these scan decks, whatever these different companies are called.

Yeah, I've noticed they've popped up. Yeah.

Yeah. So you can get that. The problem and challenge with those is it's a snapshot today.

Right.

Do you have cancer right now? And we don't really know. is that, that's when you get a mammogram. What is the dark, dark spot? Not sure. We're going to go then do ultrasound. We might do a biopsy, right? We don't know. You can't tell.

Right.

Now I will tell you.

And you can compare it. you And you can compare it to the mammograms that you've hopefully already had, too.

Yes. Yes. So that's why I like, if you have dense breasts will be like, we always know that this is a weird area. We biopsy this, like I have a, um, a titanium seed in one of my breasts because after I had been treated with cancer, they were like, uh, uh, and then they mark and they're like, that's fine. but So we know in the future, that's always the place I will.

Yeah, I have one too. Yeah.

Yeah. Park this conversation and say, from a testing standpoint, this is what is so fascinating. I mean, I am deep in the hole on cancer stuff. Now you can now,

Wow.

Buy a test. It's called the Gallieri test. It's a thousand dollars. It is not, it's not approved by the FDA yet. It will, one blood test will test up to 50 cancers in you right now today.

Wow.

Now there

And for these cancers that don't, they don't, the symptoms show up so late and a lot of other cases.

for some things. Yes. Yeah.

And ovarian cancer is one of them.

Colon cancer. Yep. Colon cancer, the, the, the rate for people, um, getting colon cancer under 40 years old is skyrocketing globally. It's not just a U S thing. So now remember when used to say, call it, uh, get a colonoscopy at 50.

At 50, yeah.

Now they're saying, get it at 45. I mean, there's something going on now.

Mm-hmm.

If you ask me, it's all related to environmental factors. You know, most cancers 15, maybe 20% are genetic or inherited.

yeah

The rest are all lifestyle. and environmental. So you tell me where that's coming from.

Yeah, we have lot plastic in our bodies to the air quality, everything.

Oh, plastic. I mean, yeah. So, um, so there's that test, which is fascinating. And that actually, um, is going under a huge clinical trial in the EU right now, because they're trying to narrow down the, um, misdiagnosis.

Mm-hmm.

think they were up at like somewhere around 28%. They're trying to get that down lower. Um, so you don't have a, a misdiagnosis rate, but that's a test. Like if you knew that you had the BRCA gene or whatever, all cancer runs, your phone you could get that right now, but it's expensive.

Right. Yeah, no, i I think that's, I mean, that's the thing is that if you go into your doctor, especially as a woman or any minority, and you are, you know, you're describing symptoms and they're, they're so like, oh, well, you know, it's probably, you know, gas, it's probably hormones. um Like, well, well here's a, here's a pill to mask the, the feet, the symptoms.

Yeah.

We're not going to worry about something that might an underlying issue that might be causing it.

color

Here's something just to address the symptoms. um And I do think that women in particular, as you described, like need to fight and advocate for our own health.

yeah

And so, you know, sometimes it is just telling the doctor, hey, i want I want you to treat me as if I may be at risk of having something more serious here. What tests can I get prescribed through mine that can be covered through the insurance that you will prescribe?

Referring to a specialist, right?

Like, yeah, refer me.

You gotta keep checking all the boxes. Yeah. yeah yeah

Yeah, you have to advocate for yourself.

So, you know, since I've been through this, I am a huge advocate. Like I, for ovarian cancer on a national organization, I go to DC and try and get more research funding with these people all over the country. We do it through the ovarian cancer research Alliance. But on the other side, I probably every other the month text. Um, so I have a friend, my boss's sister just got diagnosed with ovarian cancer. where You talk to her Absolutely. will take that call. I don't have kids, but I take that call as if it was a kid. You call me anytime, day and night. I will talk to you about this.

I know you have, you, you have really been such a, an advocate, um, and spoken so much about, um, you know, the, the changes that you made to, that you both went through, you know, the, the treatment you went through and the changes that you made and the research that you did, it's just been, you know, i'm like, when's the book coming out? Um, but in the meantime, I do want to go back cause you were talking about going to mercy and I want to, yeah.

Yeah. So I go, um, yeah, yeah. So I go in, so that number I said, CA 125 was 825. Okay. okay so I have all these meetings, go to this doctor.

Yeah.

What's the plan we're going to, you're, uh, like, um, when you have fluid in your abdomen, they call that ascites, right? they're like the ascites is it's the bloating is so serious. We have to hit you with chemo right away. We're going to do it weekly, not every three weeks. Like we got it. We've got to start to contain this. From the time I was diagnosed, my first infusion of chemotherapy was three weeks later. And by the time I had my first infusion, that CA-125 was up to 1,450. That's how fast and how just strong that cancer was. It was like gasoline on a match.

Jeez.

And you're just freaking out, right? i mean, now I go to my first infusion and, you know, I'm crying. because you don't know, you don't know what you don't know. Okay. All I know is you're going to put these chemotherapy drugs inside of me. I am, I'm like, am I going you know, they're like, well, give all these premeds so that you don't have these weird reactions. I mean, you're there for eight hours, you know, so, um,

How did you deal with that?

yeah

How did you deal with that fear?

I was just, I was scared. i mean, you know, um, and I cried and these these nurses are I mean, angels, okay. School teachers, nurses, they're angels. And they are just like, oh honey, don't worry.

Yeah.

You know what? I had breast cancer. I can't believe how many nurses I met that had cancer. Okay. It was unbelievable.

Yeah.

And they're like, oh, you're going to be fine. And blah, blah, blah. We're going take care of you. And you know, that first infusion goes you're like, okay, I'm not dead yet. I'm still here. still here. But I talked to a lot of people.

Yeah.

And, um, you know, anybody I could find, and I say to people, anybody that you've met over your life, um, you have cancer, you ring that rag out from the last drop of water. You call whoever you got a call to get an appointment with whoever there are. No one is going to reject you if they can help you. Okay. You need to see that top doctor at Hopkins. You do whatever you got to do to get in that door. Cause that is the difference between, that could be the difference between life and death.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I was talking to a lot of people and I have a friend who he, I met him when he was at Hopkins doing research and he's at Harvard and he does, it has nothing to do with cancer. yeah me This guy is hysterical. Dr. Kevin Kitt Parker. Okay. This guy's brilliant. I saw him on 60 minutes one day when I was like making dinner years ago. i was like, Oh my God, is that Kevin? Like, you know, he's just that smart. And he, he, he's like Southern and he's, he's like, he's very direct. He's like pricey. I'm just going to tell you, he's like, you know, look, you're, you're strong. You're real strong. It's like, you gotta go with this hard. Okay. You take kitchen sink, you throw everything. You gotta, you go in hard. Cause you don't do this once, you know? And I was like, Oh God, all right. right and so i would talk to people and they would give me all this advice. i was like, all right, I gotta, I gotta go hard at this. Right. And so I did this, started the chemo and they stick a rod in your abdomen, um, for four weeks and suck the fluid out of your abdomen and your lung. It's like a gallon of, it looked like red Kool-Aid. I mean, it was just going 90 miles an hour.

Oh, yeah.

You're like, okay, I know. And so there is a team at Mercy that does this oncology surgery called HIPEC, H-I-P-E-C stands for hypothermic intraperitoneal chemotherapy.

yeah

And so I had heard about this. And when I was first going there, I was like, don't try and push that surgery on me because I'm not getting it. I'm like, I've read about it. I've seen the videos and that stuff was nasty. And my oncologist, who's this lovely man from Greece, he'd laugh and he'd be like, I'm not going to make you do anything you don't want to do. I'm like, because I know where this is going, you know, because by that point, they're like, yeah, this cancer fluid that was in your abdomen has pushed into your lung. And so that makes you stage four. Now you get on Google and you just Google yourself ovarian cancer stage for survival. And it says 30% of the people live five years. You're like, Oh, well, that's bad.

Yeah.

Uh, so, you know, shit gets real. And so, you know, and people ask me like, how do you know, like, how do you fight back?

yeah

And it's kind of like everything that's going on right now. What are your other options?

Uh-huh.

Right. Your option is to let it overtake you. we're not letting that happen. So I'm going to, in my head, I was like, okay, so 30%, you know, my partner, John, who was so optimistic, he's like, he's like, this is, he's like, we're going to take care of this. Isn't to be a problem. You know, he had prostate cancer. I'm like, dude, you're not, you weren't stage four. He's like, you're going to do, you're going to do it. You're going to be great. And I was like, don't think that, I don't think so. And so in my head, I was like, all right, there's the 30% that make it through that doorway. How the hell do I get in that 30% lane? What do I got to do to be that? And so I did that surgery.

Yeah.

And so this high pec surgery is, it's regular surgery, right? that If you have a grand cancer, they cut you open. They don't do it laparoscopically. And so, you know, they got you open. And so I had already had chemotherapy. So, ah you know, they they do the radical hysterectomy. But this guy, Dr. Sardi and his team, Um, the, the surgical team, they call this high pec surgery. They call the shake and bake.

I'll never forget you describing that in that way to me.

and Yeah. Because you can't forget it. And they're all kind of like, Oh yeah, that'd be great. So they take everything out of you, cut any your residual cancer they see. And his thing is the cytoreductive surgery. i mean, it's when they take things out of your body during surgery. And his approach is we take everything up that you don't need to survive because it gives one less place. The cancer can come back. So it's radical hysterectomy outcomes, your spleen outcomes, your gallbladder, your appendix and your omentum, which is that kind of fatty tissue. That's between your kind of skin and your abdominal wall kind of holds all your stuff in And that's cancer loves that because also it's a little crevice.

Huh? huh

Okay. They take all this shit out. Then they take, uh, they heat chemo, 270 degrees. They based it, you line in line out 90 minutes on the table. This thing's running through your abdomen. They roll you around the table. This is the shake part because the chemo is baking you and the nurses and they're like, you like need you up to try and get it in all the crevices. Cause the point is we know this is where the cancer is. It's not in my brain. Let's get the chemo where the cancer is. Do it for 90 minutes, suction it out, staple you up, send you to ICU. No.

They're not fucking around.

no Uh, this is a 10 hour for me. It was a 10 hour surgery. They call it the mother of all surgeries for a reason.

Yeah.

If you are not an ICU, this is the, this is the worst one you can get. Now, worst one you can get this, this kind of surgery regular is it's a pain in the ass anyways, because it's your abdominal core. Right? So this was the go as hard as you can Tracy thing. Right. Okay.

Yeah.

So I was like, all right, this is my best shot at life. Right. I, I have to do it. And so, um I was in the hospital for eight days and now average can run on like 10 to 12. Um, but you know

Yeah, I'm sure i'm sure that there's not a this is there's no guarantee you're going to survive this surgery, this process.

yeah, most people survive the surgery. It's the, what happens after the recovery from this is considerable.

Yeah.

And so i was all about, you know, how the hell do I get out of this hospital?

yeah

You know, and, uh, one day my doctor, sorry, and he talks to this heavy Colombian accident accent. And I was in the hospital like four days and it's just tubes everywhere, you know, drains and Foley's and I mean, just you're all over the place. I make a show a picture of me, I'm bald. I mean, it's just, it's sad, but but that's my warrior picture, right? But you wanna look and feel how good, how far you've come. You look at that and you're like, yeah, I can, if I can do that.

Yeah. You know, you're, you're, you're, you need, you should send me some pictures and for the, for the people that are watching this, not just listening.

Oh, sure.

Um, let's go, I'll want to add some of these in because i just think it, uh, it's very, you know, I don't even have words for, for kind of what you went through. Um,

Yeah, it's intense. It's intense. And so he comes in and I was like, he's like, oh, he's all, he's super positive.

yeah

like, hi, yeah, what are you doing today? was like, well, you know, like, I'm okay. It's kind rough. like ah He's like, he's like, yeah, he's like, it's like I drove a Mack truck over you and then I backed up and I want have you again. ha ha ha ha. i was like, Yeah. You didn't tell me that part before the surgery. He's like, oh, you'll be fine. i was like, oh my God. I'm like, that's exactly what it felt like. He ran over me with a truck twice. Um, and so I was just super, like, I walked the halls, like it was my job.

Wow.

Anybody came to visit me and like, we're walking. Cause had gotta to have a bowel movement to get out of there. And when they take all of your insides out, it takes a while for things to kind of find their way back.

Yeah.

And, um, so I got out and then, you know, it's a long road back because so much chemotherapy, your blood counts totally plummet. I mean, I went back to the hospital at one point, it was maybe a month after. And I mean, I was so depressed and I couldn't barely like take half a flight of stairs. Cause I couldn't, you know couldn't get any oxygen and i was in there and I was crying and you know, his PA team, there's like six of them, five or six of them. They're all really great. And so, you know, I'm going in there because they're going to do whatever, take some other drain out of me and this guy. and I'm like crying. I was like, I'm never going to get better. I'm like, I'm never, I'm going to be like this forever. This is never going to get better. I just want to walk outside the front doors of this hospital and walk in front of a bus and just like, just, just take me. I'm like, that this is horrible. And he's like, I'm telling you, you guys he goes, he goes, I I've never gone through what you're going through. He's like, he goes, i totally get it. He's like, this is the most intensive surgery anybody can ever do. And he's like, I promise you, you're going to make it through blah, bla blah, blah. And he's like, you know, do you want to talk to a counselor? I'm like, sure. You know, she comes over and I'm like, I just to die. And then he's like, all let's just, we're going to give you two points of blood. He's like, you know, maybe boost up your red blood cells. Yeah. Like an hour later I was like, I'm fine. Let's go. Okay. I, you don't understand the chemistry of your body, red blood cells. If you are not getting oxygen to your brain and your body. you feel like you want to kill yourself. And so, i mean, I was like, oh, okay, my blood, red blood counts are low. Okay, give me some more of that. I mean, I must've had eight eight transfusions of blood from the time of that surgery.

Yeah.

Not that I was bleeding out, but that chemo, just it just destroys all your blood cells. you know i say chemotherapy is like, I need to kill three trees in a forest, so I'm just gonna burn the whole thing down.

Yeah.

And we got the three trees.

Now, were you continuing with chemo after your surgery or was it all in lead up and then you had shake and bake?

Yeah. So I did the, so what they would call a cycle of chemo is, you know, I had a broken out. So I had nine weekly sets of chemo, which is three cycles. They want you to do six in total. So I have this whole surgery and the recovery is tough, you know, like trying to get my GI to work again. And you're so weak. I mean, I easily lost 20 pounds and, you know, you lose a lot of muscle mass and

Yeah. Yeah.

It's just, it's a struggle. And so I just would say to John, I was like, look, this is one day at a time. I'm going to do the best that I can today. And, um, some today's going to be better and maybe tomorrow's going worse, but that's all I got. That's all I got. That's all I can do.

yeah

And so then they wanted, they're like, oh yeah. So this is the part I probably left off. So I, then after they send everything to pathology, so they will give you a a surgical report. And this thing's long. I mean, I couldn't even read it for many, many months after. And then they're like, oh, by the way, she has a very rare subtype of cancer called carcinosarcoma, which, yeah, you Google that and it's like, yeah, that that one's bad.

oh lucky you. Okay.

so like carcino and sarcoma. So carcino is cellular cancer, sarcoma is soft tissue. So that's like skin, bones, ligaments. And so this says, well, her cancer could come back anywhere now. So it can come back. you know, hard places to find, like it could be soft tissue, whatever.

and know

And so then they're like, we want you to do three more cycles of chemo. And I was like, no, dude, no, no, no The whole reason i did that really bad surgery. So I wouldn't have to do that. So, uh, I went ahead and did it. Cause you like, you just went through all that and you're like, you're going to stop at the, just before the finish line, you know, you're like, fuck it.

Yeah.

Fine, let's do it. I don't want it. it was Although it was a lot easier doing it every three weeks. But I pushed back and he wanted to do it like a month before. And I said, no, I'm not ready. He's like, well, we can't wait too long. I'm like, we're going wait as long as I need to. And I'm not ready.

Mm-hmm.

I know what it feels like to go through it.

Mm-hmm.

I can't do it right now. And so we wait another month and I felt a little bit stronger and it was better. But then, you know, then it's the the recovery from that. And so, I mean, I couldn't like leave my house comfortably about because, oh, I also had a like a a resection in my lower rectum area because ah tumor was pushing up against that. And so they cut a piece out, turns out it wasn't cancerous. So like my holding tank, of like when I had to go, you had to go.

Yeah.

So you, you know, you'd go out to dinner and then, you know, peristals and stuff's moving and I'd be in the car.

Yeah.

i'm like, okay, we have to get home like right now.

yeah

Okay. I'm not going to make it. You know, so it'd be like, give me the keys. I'll run into the door. And so this was the process. It took me a while to feel normal in your head. And it's just all, I'm going through menopause now. have surgical menopause, all this great stuff. So you go through all this. Now you're starting to feel like, okay, here I am. Here's where I'm at. So what are you going to do with yourself now?

Mm-hmm.

and So now you have a cancer that has a very high recurrence rate. Very, very high, probably like 80%. So now you're thinking like, well, this is going to come back. And so how do you want to spend your time? So do I jump back into work? Cause that's what I used to do.

ah huh

and then I get a reoccurrence, you know, three years later and I say, that's how I spent my time. And so I struggled, right. And what was really meaningful and how did I want to spend my time? And so John and my partner and just I just had to build a house. And he's like, are you sure that you're up for this? I'm like, dude, I could be dead. Like in six months, I said, but I think that you should build this house. This, this is what you'd want. This would make you happy. Like when, before I went in for surgery, um, I had a big dinner party at the house the the couple days before. Cause I was like, I'm not really interested in you all coming to my funeral. So we're going to have this party now. So if I don't make it, like I scheduled that surgery the day before my birthday. Cause I was like, we'll see if there'll be something to celebrate the next day on my birthday. So I'm in ICU and everyone everyone's like, oh, Hey, it's your birthday. house I was like, but that's my philosophy.

Geez.

Right? So we could party before.

Yeah.

And then if I make it through to the other side, we'll have another party later. but That was my thing of like, I got to see if I can get to the other side of this. Cause I don't know. And I kept everything very private because I didn't know if I was going to live. You know, and I just didn't want the whole pity party and all that BS. Plus I was like, if I start my business again, who's going to hire the cancer lady?

Well, had you stopped your business at that point?

Yes. I mean, I had to stop everything. Yeah.

Yeah.

mean, I couldn't even read an email.

And how, Yeah. So, I mean, so you, you knew that, did you know that was going to be the the course that as soon as you knew it was serious? Like, did you know everything was just going to stop?

No.

Yeah.

No, because it's uncharted territory, right? most of the Most of my family is long past, so it's not like I knew that cancer ran on my family.

Yeah.

i this This was not, I don't think that this is hereditary. This, when I look back on it now, I can look back on it with a lens that says, hmm, that was my lifestyle. Too much stress, too much work, not enough sleep. That was, didn't cause the cancer, but it created an environment that made it easy for cancer to find a lifeline. So I work now, so i you know, i go through all this kind of healing stuff and all the medical stuff. I was on a maintenance drug called the Bastin IV for, um, a year for 18 months after every three weeks I'd go for that, but that was easy. That was not like chemo. And that's all about suppressing blood vessel growth. So that cancer, that's all cancer is, right? We all have it walking around in our bodies. We have it.

Right.

All the cancer wants its lifeline is blood. It gets that lifeline and it can flourish. It may not, but it could. And so like Avastin suppresses new blood vessel growth. So when you're in this kind of recovery phase and cancer's trying to claw its way back, it can't, it's not easy for it to find a lifeline.

Yeah.

And so that's a great drug. And that's an easy drug. And so, uh, this whole process sort of goes through and now I start to get into the why, like, did I get here? And here's the thing about the the United States. We are amazing at cutting you open and giving you pills. I mean, we are lifesavers. People from all over the world come to the U S we have the best healthcare, but what we're not good at is understanding how did you get here? Why?

Yeah.

We don't care about that because we can't make money off that.

No. Yeah.

So I got into this whole, like the why and some of these alternative treatments. So when I started going through treatment and chemotherapy, and when we first started, I said to John, I was like, look, I've done a bunch of research and I, you know, and I had this, some health issues in the past. And I said, the one thing that I know is food matters. I said, so I'm going to hire a private chef.

Yeah.

And, um, I've just read this book. This book had just come out. Dr. William Lee, his last name's L i he's a Harvard guy. You just came out with a book called eat to beat disease. When I was diagnosed, came out right before it was like, it was written for me.

Mm-hmm.

And I clung to this book. Like it was my Bible and he's done Ted talks and he's like, scientifically, it's not a diet, but scientifically here's the top 20 foods that fight cancer. I mean, I couldn't write this stuff down fast enough, right? Green tea. Green tea is the number one cancer fighter that you can consume. I was like, okay, I no longer drink coffee. and I know drink drink green tea. Okay. What else? Berries. Great. I love berries. And so you went down this whole thing. So I read his book and i built this sheet of like, these are the strongest cancer fighting foods. I hired a private chef and she's vegetarian. I was like, you cook only from this list.

Yeah. I remember, I remember you, I think you were posting about it maybe on Instagram.

And

um You know,

She would fill the refrigerator like, here's all this week's food.

yeah, but, but more, more importantly than that, like you were just, you were, you were like, here's, you know, here's information that can save me or, or will have a big impact on my life.

so not

And why would I ignore it? Why wouldn't I lean into this and, and do these things? Like, And and you you know you you did it like it was your job. And um and i just i really...

Exactly. And it still is. I still live that way.

yeah

I spend an inordinate or in ordinate amount of time in the kitchen building my quality of life. um So his book is amazing. I highly recommend. He wrote a second book, Eat to Beat Your Metabolism or something. But it's like, it's science.

Also, when I mean, when did we decide that food was was not important?

It's like,

um Like when it's not, it's the most important thing that we put into our bodies every day.

Food is medicine, right?

Yeah.

I mean, you, you, you look at chemotherapy, the the longest, one of the longest ones that's been around carboplatin that is derived derived from a tree. Okay. the The true kind of natural medicines, they're all derived from nature. Right.

Yeah.

And so. there's a cause and a reaction, right? And so you do certain things and, you know, not to say that you don't ever do anything, but like you start when I started reading years ago and it's like, um, and this is all before what's come out recently now about alcohol, like alcohol is a class one carcinogen.

Yeah. Yeah.

There's no doubt about it. And I read that. I was like, okay, well i don't drink anymore.

yeah

I'm doing that. And my oncologist, every time I used to see him, you know, when I was actively seeing him, was like, and this is the thing about doctors. So are you still not drinking? Nope. He's like, that's good. They're not going to tell you not to do it because they don't want to be the bad guys and all that. You know, like we're not going to try and legislate. And the other thing about the the healthcare care system is hospitals are run by lawyers and medical professionals. Right. And so the medical team says, we've done the research. We believe this is the protocol for this kind of disease. Then the lawyers get involved and say, okay, this is how you will talk about it. And this is what you will say and what you won't say. And this is how it's the information is to be delivered. Okay. So what most patients don't realize is because they think that these doctors are gods, right? Yeah. Some of them are really smart and talented, but you ask questions, they will answer. I talked to the oncologist early on. I'm like, I mean, he loved me, but there was no other patients like me. I'm like, right, I've got all these questions. What about this? what do you think about mistletoe therapy? What about high dose vitamin C infusions? And he'd be like, uh, mistletoe therapy, if you want to do it, he's like, do it. He's like, the only thing I don't want you to do is high dose vitamin C. He's like, cause that can interfere with the chemotherapy. And I was like, Hey, what about cannabis? Cause I'm reading some things that cannabis can be good for cancer. He's like, totally endorse it. you want to use it, do it, but it's not like they'll tell you these things. Right.

No, no.

So I had to figure all this out on myself. And then years, you know, a year, two years later, I found myself a naturopathic oncologist. She's an oncologist, but she's a naturopath.

They exist?

And so, yes, Right. And she's actually in Maryland. And so I work with her and I say, you know, I love my medical oncologist, but if I never have to see you again, life will be beautiful.

yeah

And her and I will stay in our little lane. And so we do all sorts of stuff and it's, it comes down to two things. You want to stay healthy. It's two things.

right.

Keep inflammation low, keep your glucose and insulin low. Or at least, you know, don't have ongoing spikes all day. So this is my whole thing. the The first thing that she asked me when I started working with her was like, she's like, where do you get your water? And I said, not from the tap. And she's like, she's like smart. So, uh, I put in a reverse osmosis system. Like that's an all whatever house I live in. That's in do not drink the tap water. I don't care where you live. Okay. Reverse osmosis strips everything out of the water.

all right

You put a re-minilarizer on it. It puts the trace minerals and the taste back in it.

All right.

Yeah. Easy to do. Like 500 bucks.

We are going to, I'm going just, just a note too. I'm going to get all of this written down and from you and links, and we'll add it to the episode um notes page on, on the website on Hello Adeo.

Oh, yeah.

I've got a section for Escape Velocity and all the show notes. And so I just want people to know who are listening, you know, don't freak out trying to write all this down.

Oh yeah.

um

And if I could ever get my website done, that would be the other resource, but.

can go to, Yeah, or or track down, ah Tracy, but but we'll try and I'll try and share um notes and details from this conversation because I i do think you know we people need to go on this journey for themselves and um and get smarter about their nutrition and their life ah in general um before having to go through something like this, ideally.

ho

Yeah.

Yeah. Ovarian cancer is one in 70 women. And I say to people, let me be the one that you know. And let's, let's, let's call, let's close the circle there.

yeah

Right. And so, at cancer in general.

yeah

and So just, you know, I'm a big advocate for advocating for your own health. Um, the stuff that you can do around your food and diet, you know, sleep hygiene, this hustle culture is such bullshit. Like, You as a woman, particularly a menopausal woman, you must get eight to nine hours of actual sleep.

Yeah.

Put the damn phone down, get sleep. It's how your body repairs itself. Right. I know this. This is how I got myself in this stupid situation. i was not getting enough good quality sleep. You know, it's exercise. It's just all the stuff that you know, but you have to make a conscious effort. And the food thing is it's super important. Do I eat meat? Yeah, on occasion. And you know what? I either get it from a farmer that I know wherever I am, or I buy it online because it's grass fed, it's regenerative farming. Not necessarily, it doesn't have to be organic, but I will not eat meat out at a restaurant. I will not buy it at the grocery store, even if it's Whole Foods. No, it's stuff is shit. Okay. that You watch that Food Inc. 2 just recently came out. Watch that.

ah

I mean, and that, you know, buying at the farmer's market, knowing your farmer, I mean, the this industrialization of our food supply chain, it's off it's it's off the charts.

Okay. Yeah.

We're killing ourselves and we don't care.

I mean, I think, I think, I think these are, you know, I remember reading a omnivores dilemma, I think by Michael Pollan back in the day and just kind of being like, Oh, and, and that was probably 20 years ago.

Yes. Yeah.

And you kind of forget that.

Oh, that was more than that.

yeah, 25, 30. Um, but you kind of forget like, yeah, but it's just, it's just continued to get worse, not better.

Yeah. He's in this, he's in fooding too.

Um, so.

he He talks about in the film, he's like, some things have gotten better, right? Like, now there's there's there's farmers markets everywhere. We're like, yeah, okay, that's right. That wasn't kind of like a thing 20 years ago. But he's like, in other ways, it's gotten so, so much worse.

Mm-hmm.

And it just matters. that's That's what I just say to people. Like, we're killing ourselves, and no one's paid attention, and we don't care. And we've got an administration that's completely dismantling the EPA.

i

And so you think your water's bad now? You wait.

I know. And you know, and now that I have children in my life, now that I'm step-mom, um, bonus mom, uh, we talk a lot about the nutrition.

awesome mom You're the coolest mom.

What's that?

You're the coolest mom. I mean, come on.

Cool. Okay. Coolest mom. I'm also, um yeah I'm also an old mom, you know, but anyway, I don't have a lot of energy for these, uh, for these 10 year old boys.

first

Um,

I did. I did watch that podcast with him.

Oh, with Finn.

well for something and But you know what? He's keeping you. He's keeping you on trend. So, you know, all what's happening.

you know And they they keep me on my toes, which I appreciate because it'd be so easy to just get lazy and tired more tired than I already am. um They keep me on my toes and they keep me in the present moment. And I really appreciate that. um they are They are awesome little people. but But I worry about their nutrition a lot. And the thing is, when you have a 10-year-old freaking the fuck out because you're trying to get them to eat something that they don't want to eat, I mean, there's nothing... more soul crushing and harder to overcome than the meltdowns. And so, you know, Jamie and I are just kind of revisiting this now, like, look, we got to get serious. I don't care if they're going to melt down. um This is not okay that they keep eating this way.

Yeah. Well, and it's in your, you're huge battle, right? Because they're social creatures. So they're with friends at somebody else's house and they're out and about in the, in, in, and so, you know, the best thing you can do is just instill the foundation to them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like I grew up on a farm, you know, like we had this crazy garden and stuff. So like, I have always had a clear understanding where food comes from.

I

um Most people have no idea what it takes to get that steak on your plate. How many people,

i know.

hands have touched all the steps that it's gone through, how long it's taken to go that from a calf to an age of the cow where it's edible. and And so there's, we always had, cause we had animals on the farm too. There's more of a reference for like, this is an accomplishment, you know, to get this on the dinner table.

Well, I also don't think that many people are telling 10-year-olds straight up like, well, if you keep eating the way that you want to and the way that your friends do, um you're going to have a shorter life and you're probably going to get sick and it's probably not going to be very good. um But hey, yeah, sure. We'll just keep getting it for you because we don't want to deal with the freak outs and we don't want you to feel uncomfortable that you're not drinking like... the prime drink that Mr. Beast is selling because he's popular on YouTube and it's probably just full of the worst kind of chemicals. And we're not saying anything. the The peer pressure and the fact that yeah I just, I just don't want to let the kids down like that, you know, um by not being

There's also an affordability issue, right? I mean, let's like so let's face it, we come from financially secure places.

huge. Yes.

And if you do that for a family, like that's that's super expensive.

Yes. it I mean, all of this is, you know, requires a lot of privilege and access and financial abilities um that not and very many people have. ah But I guess, you know, I'm just sort of like, well, at least I'll tell the kids the truth. Yeah. so that we can make a better decision, even if both of our options are bad options. At least they'll know I'm telling them the truth and that we're doing our best with what we've got. And granted, we have a lot more options than 99% of the people out there. um So I take all of it with a grain of salt. But, you know, you to Cancer really made, you know, you said you grew up on a farm, you know where food came from, but you weren't, you weren't thinking this much about nutrition before cancer, right? Yeah.

I was. I mean, I was always fairly healthy. You know, i mean, I just love to cook. So, you know, I kind of know what's on my plate, but there's a much sharper focus about where I want to be. Like, I'm i'm not eating that.

yeah

The landscaper's outside. Do you hear that?

I do, but we'll see if we'll see how good this technology is.

yeah pull

Let's see if it, maybe it can drown it out.

um and so i like i'm just i'm in some very narrow lanes like when i was getting chemotherapy i mean it was a very narrow no processed sugar no gluten no meat uh yeah no red meat no it was like no and no no all these things i didn't do and when i would get infusions the nurses would be like wow first of all everyone was shocked that i wasn't on any other medications i'm like this is the status of america of course i must come with five other comorbidities if i have cancer

but Yeah.

And they're like, wow, you know, you're doing really well. Your numbers are really well. I'm like, this is a concerted effort. And I would say this was my biggest complaint about Mercy Hospital. And this is hospitals in general. um You're an infusion. And here comes the girl with the cart. You know, they're just trying to make you happy. And she's got Rice Krispie treats and potato chips and chocolate chip cookies. Now I would go in infusion room, like like I was camping because I brought all my own food, my own water, ice packs for my hands and feet. So I didn't get neuropathy. I mean, it was ridiculous. John would be like, are we staying overnight here? I'm like, we we practically are. Okay.

Yeah.

But everyone was like, wow, you know, you're handling all these things really well. I'm like, this isn't by accident. You know, uh, this is like a full-time job. So now, you know, I'm much looser. Uh, but I'm still like, do I drink? Maybe, you know, I might have a glass of champagne here and there, but cause I even look at it. People like, don't you just want, I'm like, yes, that martini. Yes. But the problem may be like, would just be like, uh, I need a second one. So just don't even, oh, just, we just don't even go down the path.

Yeah.

And I know, you know, you know how you feel badly the next day.

oh

What do you think the what it's doing to the insides of your body and the trauma that it has caused? I'm like, I am not giving cancer an inch. Okay. We are not helping this shit at all.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm going to make this as hard as possible, you know, and and I can bring the whole story full circle by saying I had that surgery in September 2019. Cause my birthday is September 11th. You can't forget that. So this last September I had my five year scan. So every year it's like one year, no recurrence. Okay. This is good. Two years. So every, you know, you're like, okay, two years, I gotta make to the two year mark two years. Okay, great. We're going great. Three years is like, that's a great benchmark. You make it to three and I was like, okay, three, like we're still clear. This is amazing. And then you make it to five, five is like fireworks. You can make it to five years with stage four ovarian cancer with no recurrence. You, I say to people, I am your unicorn. Okay. You'd never think you've met one. Well, you've met one and it's me. The fact I am now five and a half years out. Um, it is, it is a miracle. A true miracle. It is. And I say that it's that medical treatment I had with the personal responsibility that I took. Cause I said, I'm going to find the absolute best medical professions and I'm going to have a hand in this outcome and I'm going to do everything I possibly can. to help with their doing, be more effective. And then I'm going to take the reins from there and I'm going to keep riding this path. And so that's been my philosophy. And I mean, I'm just, I'm overjoyed. Like I have no worries in the world, please. You know, and then I'm still standing. I'm healthy to tell you that. And I'll send you these pictures. I want you to look at those pictures and then hear from me and say, as if as if It was the time before that. Yeah, now menopause, like that sort of stuff sucks, but I don't feel any differently. It's not even humanly possible. I thought I was going to be long dead by now. So the fact that I'm still here and I feel as incredible as I do, it's a huge testament. So like I try and help the doctor and he's trying to, you know, nationally and internationally talk about HIPEC and how it can be used. I mean, it can be used for multitude of cancers and a lot of hospitals don't utilize it because they still consider it exploratory or you know, um, not yet fully vetted. They've been doing this since the nineties. I went to MD Anderson. Okay. The best in the country, right?

right

That's all they do is cancer. I went to them after my treatment to talk about what might be a good maintenance drug treatment. And I met with them and they're very, very good. Let me tell if you, if you've got something bad, like that is a top notch place. And, and so i they went through my whole file and I said, so let me ask her, i said, would you have done anything differently than the treatment that I had? And they're like, well, we wouldn't have done high PEC for ovarian cancer. And I was like, well, thank God I didn't come here.

wow

you just don't know. and you know, the other thing is when you look at these cancer statistics is, you know, my oncologist would say stop being Dr.

yeah

Google, get off the internet, you know, but there's a certain amount of things that you want to know.

i

When you're talking about you live in the Northeast or you live in a highly educated research hospital centric area, you take cancer survival rates. You have to amalgamate that across the whole country. So you think somebody in North Dakota is getting the same treatment you're getting in Boston, New York or Baltimore? No.

yeah

So then you start to take that. You look, if you come into it fairly healthy, right? Not a lot of comorbidities, you keep edging your odds. And so you have to be very careful. about getting too distracted with these statistics because it's not you.

was

You're you.

it's a great point. It's a great point. And, um, you know, we started off this conversation kind of talking about perspective and, and obviously going through this has changed yours and it, it's a gift now, really the perspective that you have and that you've given yourself the ability to have by fighting through this war and, and being successful and hitting again, congratulations on fucking hitting five, five years. Um, But, you know, like we're all we're all eventually going to kick the bucket. um

Absolutely.

And, you know, you talk about ah sleep and taking care of ourselves and paying more attention to health, but stress. You talk about stress. And if you could go back to the u pre the pre-cancer you, you know, what were the things that you were letting just be a big deal that really weren't?

Well, I will start by saying I'm a Virgo. Okay. So I'm a perfectionist. Okay. Are you Virgo?

I'm a cancer.

Oh, okay. So if you know Virgos, we are perfectionists. Everything is going to be perfect. We're going to make it perfect. Okay. So I already come to the table with a really high bar for everything.

Yeah.

And so, yeah.

Perfectionism is tough.

And particularly if you were in it, working in a creative environment, right? Cause there is no perfection to any of this.

Yeah.

um Imperfection and sometimes is the best journey, right?

Right.

Oh, there is, there's that you come to the table with. And then just kind of like my personality, I'm kind of, I'm very driven, focused. I kind of, I'm very decisive, I know. And so, um all of that kind of like, didn't come falling down, but it certainly deflated. And then it was like, okay, how far do I want to reinflate any of this? Right. And so, um, my level of, uh, how much I can take or how far I'm going to be pissed off. Now it's kind of like, whatever, really, you know, like I play, I play golf, I'll play competitively. And, you know, some people get so bent out of shape or, you know, and they say things and i always lean into people and say, know, it's great about this. It's just fucking golf. That's it. No one cares. That's all it is. Uh, and so I definitely would have changed like the work thing that I talked about, you know, I would have, um, I would have drawn, my my lines in the sand are much brighter, right? I'll give you an example. John, you know, wants to go out to dinner with a couple and I'm like, no, I'm not doing it. You know, I'm not going to waste three hours of my life, of which I don't know how much more time I have, how many more breaths I have. I'm not going to spend it with them. You know, I'm not, but I just like,

oh And and we none of us really know that, you know, and I think it's like, lee the you know, the gift of going through a... we you know, almost guaranteed terminal, um, battle with cancer and coming out the other side is like, that's gotta be a completely different lens that you look at life through.

hu

And, but the reality is we all should be looking at life more like that.

Yeah, it's hard to like, you can't like live every day, like it's your last, but there's a difference between peering over the edge. And I had like a zoom lens, you know, I got a real view.

You were dangled, you were dangled over the edge. Yeah. You were dangled over the edge

Yeah. I got a real view down there and it was like, okay. I mean, I had always come to that cause like I come from a family, you know, seven with my parents. There's only me and my brother left. You know, so I've seen people die at young ages.

Yeah.

It's like, okay, like you gotta kind of make your time here count.

Yeah.

And so now I'm just kind of focused on, I just find joy in the smallest things. You go out for a walk and you're like, they're the birds, like they're making noise. You know, there's just like that, what you talk about with your, your stepkids is like, it's really hard. You have to struggle to live in the present, right? Cause you're thinking about what else I got to do.

Yeah.

And, you know, a hundred people have written books about this, but it's a thing like to, to be, in the present moment and in not to get too stressed out about the future. Like I was just texting with a, someone going through ovarian cancer treatment and she's like, oh you know, my scan next month on the scans I D and I was like, stop right there.

Yeah.

said, there's no scans I here. i said, you've done everything that you possibly can. You're going to the best doctors. You're doing all their treatment. You're doing all this stuff for yourself that you think that you can do. said, but there's nothing more that you can do. You go in with a positive attitude because you say, going to prove that everything that this path that we're on, that we're working on is working. And that's what that scan is going to tell me. So don't give cancer another minute of your fricking life.

Yeah.

Don't let it to give you any more anxiety. It's already, it's already taken probably years off your life from the anxiety that you already had.

You know, yeah, it's, it's so it's so hard, but it's so true that if you talk about like what you can actually control, um, in life, really it's your mindset is really the only thing.

So that's always my philosophy about this is

I mean, you can control a lot of other things, but, but at the end of the day, yeah it's, ah it's at the end of the day, it's amazing how much we don't take control and ownership over our mindset.

Not much.

Um, because it can have such an impact on our lives. And, I, I hope she, she took your advice. Cause that's good advice.

Yeah, she did. She was like, she's like, that's a really great perspective. I'm like that. That's, that's my goal. Right. When I was diagnosed and you know, face the one thing that that's great about Facebook. are these little micro groups. They're private.

Yeah.

You're on a cancer drug. There is a Facebook group for that drug. And do you want to know the crowdsourcing of all the side effects and what people are doing to deal with it? That's where you go. Cause your doctor, he didn't know about this. Okay. So I, you know, I started a meeting them on the ovarian cancer things and I'm scrolling like crazy. Please find me someone that has had stage four that's still alive. Like do they exist? Like, has anybody been here more than three years? Do you live? I don't, you know, you're desperate for information. And so I try and always be like this positive resource.

yeah

And, you know, I had the worst, no one gets it any worse than what I have. And so I'm here to tell you that like, you can make it through the other side. And even if it's only for three more years and make it three great fucking years, you don't know.

Right. Right. Man, that's a good so that's a good spot to end this conversation, I think. um This has been awesome. Thank you so much for just sharing your journey. And you are truly, um you know, i mean, you were already a badass, but... um

sure

It's just been it's been great. um It's been great knowing you and and hearing these these things that you've gone through and what you've learned. um And I just really appreciate that you're trying to share a lot of that knowledge. And meanwhile, like let's also you know save the the world if we can while we're here. least make it a little bit better through our clients, the work that we do.

certainly It's worth saving.

You know, um let's just focus on, on good doing good.

Yes.

Just like whether it's with your email with just being a good human. So thank you again for joining me today.

Yeah. um just i I just want to be a above-the-ground badass. Okay? That's my goal.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's keep kicking as long as possible on that front.

like Awesome. Thank you so much. It was such a great opportunity to to be be with you all afternoon. It's been a while since I've seen you.

Let's do it again soon.