Elizabeth Bawol: Senior Brand + Creative Director

Well, thank you all for being here again for my conversation with Elizabeth Bawol. She is a creative director at Wide Eye Creative of Brandon Strategy. And did I say all that right so far?

I was all right. Yep.

um I have known Elizabeth for many years and have admired her work and the professional journey she has gone on um from places like AmeriCorps, right, here in Baltimore, which I'm curious to hear a little bit more about.

Yeah. Yep.

I didn't realize you were part of that. um We both share a common history of Maryland Institute College of Art, and then you spent some wonderful time, it sounds like, at Planned Parenthood leading their creative strategy and direction, and then over to Wide Eye, where you've worked on some really high-profile campaigns.

Right.

Most recently, the Democratic National Convention, all of the grand and yeah, so it's been quite a ride.

That's right.

um And today, I think we are going to dive into a lot of different topics and we'll see where it goes. But um as always, just kind of talking about how we as creative people, as strategists, as people that are just always growing and trying to learn and do better, we know that we always need to breakthrough or as you're your website said, collapse the box. ah Great quote.

Mm-hmm.

ah Collapse, what is it? Collapse the box. ah Yes, think outside the box, collapse the box and take a fucking shove knife to it.

Take a knife to it. Good Banksy quote. Attributed to Banksy. I presume it was actually me. Get in here firsthand.

That's great. um So thanks for being here to talk with me today and I loved some of the things that you sent over that were kind of on your mind um and you know one of the things I guess just over your career as a as a creative has there been anything that you've kind of

Yeah.

held onto as a tried and trusted, like, if I go to this well, I'm going to find the answers that help me get to wherever it is I'm trying to get to or whatever, through through whatever blocker um you're encountering, whether that's in work or in life.

Yeah. That's a really great question. I feel like, um you know, this whole career of mine, um it's not necessarily been strategic. It's actually been quite a wandering journey. So going with my gut has been a big part of that. And it sometimes has led me to great places and sometimes um not, but for the most part, yeah um you know, it's a win to follow your gut. I think that, um you know, it's not the sexiest answer, um but almost without fail after a few years in the business and a few years of really professionally like making things, um sort of that knowledge that the only way to get there is through. like You can't get around the hard work. You can't get around going through it all and the hard parts and there's always going to be hard parts when you're creating something. and innovating, um but trusting that sort of process, even if the process isn't really rigid, doesn't always follow the same steps. I know from the brand side, it almost never follows the same steps. I'm curious how you feel from the interactive and digital space too, but um so like it's trusting the process and knowing that if you roll up your sleeves and do the work and go through, um you'll arrive somewhere because you've put in the work. And I think that that, um that pans out almost every time.

That's a great answer. um I think I've got that book sitting over my bookshelf. The only way is through. um And I guess, you know, that's why the the good things wouldn't feel so good if it was just easy to get them all the time.

Yeah, I find a lot of people are sort of like looking for the formula, especially like young in your career, you know, it's like, well, but it may be next time if we follow these steps will be easier.

um

And I think the answer is, it just isn't easy.

I know it's it's amazing to me that we as a species just continue to look for the magic pill. um And we're still we still waste a lot of time and money believing that it exists.

Yeah, we do. That magic pill is just time and work.

and Yeah, and pain and fear right because it's it's also a lot of unknown the through art.

Yeah. Dead ends, right? Yeah.

There's no guarantee of when and how you're going to get through it. So you have to be willing to

Right.

enter into a very scary place. And I would say from a business perspective, it's even scarier because how do you put scope around that?

yeah Yep. Well, it's true and there's a bravery and a faith, right? And if you're not necessarily generally a person of faith, like having faith in that is such a deep sort of an experience.

Yeah.

I think that um working for makers in particular can be really helpful because I do think that people that have been makers And then became directors or became owners and things of companies. Like at least they know that there's no clear path that it's not like a, it's not like a formula. You can just apply to everything. I think that can be really helpful.

Yeah, it's really interesting. um You know, as I've been, you know, talking to other people who've, who've had long successful careers, and we we get into the topic of like, what you should charge for an hour. And I'm like, well, your hour is a lot more valuable than someone who's just starting out hour.

Hmm.

um Because it's even though you still have your throughs that you've got to go through, right, like, you're a lot more likely to

Yeah. Yeah.

kind of have an amazing idea in five minutes.

Right.

um Does that mean that that you charge for the five minutes?

Or what it's worth.

You know, that it's like the entire, it's like Picasso saying, you know, scribbled on the on the napkin and charged $10,000 for it.

Yep.

And the lady said, that just took you 30 seconds to make it. And he said, it's taken me 65 years to make it, yeah.

Right. And a lifetime. It's so true.

So um along those lines, You know, what what advice do you give to the younger professionals that are coming into this field who are butting up against the deadlines and the deliverables? And yet, you know, that part of that process is the going through and the unknown.

Yeah, it's so interesting because there's no amount of advice that teaches you or like hearing from me, you got to push through it. You will get there. Like you have to experience, I think doing that enough times and having success at the end of that road to know that that advice is sound. So it's really tough to just tell someone kind of starting out that they're going to hit it if they really put in the work and use the talent they have, but also trust the process.

Yeah.

Um, I really kind of think that the only thing that teaches young people in in this business is really like the wins that they have and the failures that they have along the way. Like that's what gets you to a point of confidence that, you know, the hard work is worth it.

Do you, ah do you get suspicious of it, of things being easy or like if things are seem a little too obvious? Like when do you, when do you, when do your spidey senses like kick in and, and you know, to start questioning things?

Yeah. That's really interesting. You mean like when guiding other people, like when younger people are in dinner?

Well, yeah, especially when guiding other people because you know that like the last thing they want to do is hear that they need to like change something or revisit it.

Right. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. I mean, I think that like, It's not so much that I get suspicious as like, you know, everybody can get lucky. There are people, you know, you'll get lucky, you'll have a good idea, or something, but will a breakthrough will happen early sometimes. It's just, that's gonna be the rarity, noge that's gonna be the exception, not the rule. So I'm a little distrustful of the folks that are kind of like, oh, well, I nailed it in the first half hour every time.

Yeah.

um But also, you I think that the older you get, the less objective this work becomes too, because you're looking at, you know, if you really wanna do something different, you wanna really do some creative that breaks through, there has to be some sort of strategy guiding that. There has to be some deep understanding of who it's for um or who it's about or both, usually both, and sort of the intersection there.

right

And so you can measure it against, oh, does this just look cool? and just Or does this actually meet the measure of success that we have strategically? So I think it's easier to call out what does and doesn't work. Because it's not really all that subjective.

yeah Well, here's another question for you. How much do you think that that foundation of strategy that, as you know, a good, exciting, innovative strategy that really does connect with, you know, the mission or the the vision or the authentic, like whatever it is, the brand, in a way that, like,

you

gets you know all the rockets firing, all the engines firing, and like it really does provide that velocity that you know will we'll make the the work better.

yeah

um Is that something that you think can be can be analyzed by and by an outsider who's just kind of experiencing it? Or do you think that's just something that's like a nuance and felt in the work, even though the people that are working on it have the briefs and have developed the strategy and all those things.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think that what's really interesting about strategy and what I think keeps me really engaged in it and trying to get better every time is that I don't know how often it's sort of the core sound bite that comes through in the analysis at the end of a strategic process. Like I think that that's helpful and often can be a great North star, but sometimes the things that I've seen designers on my team or brand creatives or even campaigners come to is like some part of the strategy that I didn't maybe even spend as much time on. So like some little nugget in the research or like some little piece that someone said in a global office that really resonated that unlocks the whole thing for them. So like I might look at strategy a little differently in that like while the analysis of a strategist is so important, there's just like a lot in that discovery journey that strategy journey that can unlock and I don't think you always know which piece it's going to be. I don't know if that answers your question.

Yeah it does it reminds me of um one of the something David Ogilvie was talking about well when they when they he came up with the tagline for I think it was Mercedes or Rolls Royce or something and it was it was saying that the clock is like the the ticking of the clock is the loudest thing you'll hear in the car and it's something he picked up in like a you know very technical manual that the

but

people in the that were on the production line were reviewing for quality control.

Yeah.

And he said, like, learn everything you can about your clients, you know, product, business, whatever it might be, because you never know where that that little yeah of inspiration and that like that little thing said so perfectly what no giant, you know, obvious strategy could.

yeah Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And that was about time, right? Spending the time with the client, having those and doing the research.

yeah

But that brings me to another question, which is, you know, now that we've had COVID and everyone's virtual, how important do you think discovery and research is or like getting a sense for a client since, you know, you work with clients too. um How much do you think in-person time together is important?

Yeah, I might be a little bit of an anomaly here, but I do my work and have since before the pandemic. I think 98% of it is probably remote, including the work with my creative teams and the work with my clients. and you know i I have been able to build connections and build relationships and workshop did interact, at you know, do interactive workshops with groups of people up to 30 and like, no actual real post-it notes. And, um you know, whiteboard, I think there's just tools now. Like, there's tools, there's human connection. I think you have to be of my generation, which I wouldn't reveal, in that I'll pick up the phone and ask. I will get on a Zoom and chat through something. I'll work it out on an online whiteboard. It's not always in written communication.

Yeah.

Um, but I, I don't consider it a serious barrier. I really don't as much as I'd love to get in a room with people and put some sticky notes on the wall and like, look at a big visual landscape. you There's just so many tools. So it doesn't really, I would, I'd be interested to hear how the teams I've worked with over the years. have done, but like, you know, when I was at Planned Parenthood and I was building a team, I was in Maryland. Part of the team was in DC. Part of the team was in New York. We then ended up going virtual entirely. And you know, there's, we were working with 20 people at any given time and some agencies and they were all over. And I don't think it was a barrier. If anything, the quiet time I had in my office or studio when I wasn't in an office space was the most valuable to my coming up with ideas and being able to get to a get to a place. So for me, you know, the balance of introvert and extrovert that I am, I haven't found it a barrier.

That's great. um Along the same lines, how important do you think it is to do, to spend time or have interests that are like completely, you know, have nothing to do with your work or, um and not just hobbies, but like how often or how important do you think it is to indulge what might be seen seen as like fringe interests or rabbit holes um to go down?

I mean, I think that's potentially the whole game. That's like the ah real, that's where a lot of the real kind of juice comes from. I think the one thing I would say now that I live where I live, which is kind of rural and away from a metropolitan area for the first time, it's like, I miss the sound of a city. Like I miss being able to walk around the city and see, hear, see, observe the kind of like noise and buzz that happens there and culture that happens there. Like that's my one sort of like real missing piece here in the quiet. um But like, I think, I think those rabbit holes, those distractions are actually where a lot of the connections happen that lead to great ideas.

Yeah. Yeah, it's like, you have to have the faith, right?

And I don't even think you know those connections are necessarily happening. It's just in creative brains, these little pieces find, find a home years later.

Yes.

I mean, I lived in Baltimore for so many years and I still write things down.

yeah

I heard a kid say, or like, you know, like little bits of things that I experienced there. It just like became a part of me and I still think about it quite a bit.

Yeah, I guess um all those experiences and rabbit holes do kind of they their their ingredients um that you're just adding to your your

yeah

your soup, ah your your people soup, your, yeah.

yeah

um So I think this is this a good time to kind of move over and talk about AI as we're, you know, we're talking about, you know, how important it is to do the research and get the strategy right and The only way is through and all these things that are really about you know and and having other interests where you take deep dives and all this stuff kind of sticks and and becomes part of who you are. Now you've got generative AI and all of these tools that can produce stuff that passes a lot of sniff tests um at at such an amazing speed

Well. Well.

that like the the amount of of shallow qua you know the amount of shallow stuff um is hard to fathom. I gotta sneeze. Ah, see, I mentioned it on camera and it just totally disappeared.

It stops. We'll come back later.

Wow. um And so I feel like we're there's this pressure point right where everyone's like, oh, well, I don't need to pay for this time or these thinkers or these creatives or these writers because the AI can just do it.

Sure.

um And the AI can do a whole bunch of stuff. But what's good?

sure

And then how do you push AI to like really develop deep, well-thought-out um well-executed ideas when it's really oriented towards like kind of spewing a rainbow of of crap.

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's it.

you know had

This is like, so there's so many questions in this question. Um, ah you know, AI, so far, even generative AI, it's all derivative. And to me, it's a lot, it's a great, all of these tools are great tools in our toolbox, right? But it's not, it's so far, not technology that is bringing the kind of idea generation, the kind of genius that can come from authentic lived experience. um And it's not coming up with ideas that are new, right? Like it's always going to be derived on what existed. And so there's a limit to which that could ever be as smart or as innovative or as interesting as what is something new in the mix, right? And to me, it's like having a great researcher on your team, but not necessarily a great ideater, like having someone that can pull stuff so quickly and frame it up, right?

Right.

But it's all from what has been done before. And I don't know about you, but in most of the rooms I'm in where we're trying to come up with something that really resonates, it's about the current moment. and what's next and it misses that sweat next piece to me. Now, I also think that, you know, there's a very small part of the population that knows the difference between really great creative and what AI could spew out.

yeah

And I think that's maybe where there's a slippery slope and sort of danger is that, you know, it's sort of like the slow boil. um Are we going to lower our standards or lower the kind of innovation that happens sort of slowly because of the way i ah AI generates ideas, right? Like, are we going to lose touch with that really, the really genius types of creative, the really good stuff? Because there's so much crap or so much that's derivative. And I think that's sort of where you're seeing that already with misinformation. And I just think that like, that's where sort of the risk is that and just the copying of really original artists over time, but

Yeah, and I think um this this great sort of copying or sameness has been you know seeping into everything um already.

Yeah.

so But I do think there is um there's a a lot of people that really want to embrace that. And I think it's probably because it lowers the barrier to entry, and nobody wants to have to work that hard to get to great creative, right? Because it is scary.

Yeah.

It is hard. um So it's a lot easier. It's sort of like when the digital cameras came around in the 80s, in the like late 80s, early 90s, and all the photographers were like, you know, the blast for me.

Hmm. Yeah.

And all of a sudden, everybody's like, I'm a professional photographer. um

Yeah.

In the end, you know you still really want a a real artist, a real trained photographer to work with. not just But there was a there was many years, and I think the same thing happened with web design and all the design and desktop publishing programs that became available.

Yeah.

All of a sudden, everyone's like, oh, my cousin in the basement is doing my brand. you know it's like So now that's going to happen on a lot of fronts.

can yeah it's there

um which is scary if it's like oh we're doing medical research with uh yeah joe's doing it on uh chat gpt you know we don't need to pay right

yeah yeah You know, what's really interesting about that though is like, I do agree that it's like democratizing um, the world of creation, right? In a way that, you know, there's some good to that. There are folks that you might not have heard from, right? Or, or you've seen anything from that might be able to get into the game and and into the mix, right? And come up with some really ingenious things using AI as a tool. And like, there's still going to be, you know, like, I think that authentic things and authentic art and ideas will become a currency and a differentiator. in a bit more dramatic way, like you're saying about photography, real photographers, real deep crafts people are still needed, right? And I think those ideas and those creations become more rare and therefore stand out more because there's so much more noise, right? If everyone's got a microphone, everyone's got a camera, everyone's got chat GPT, everyone's gonna start to sound the same more and more. Like it's just sort of this dull roar in my opinion and like,

Yeah.

It makes people that really have that spark, that ability to make new things stand out a little bit more. And there's hope in that, I think.

I love that. um You've given me some more hope. I tend to and can get a little cynical about it all. um Along those lines, how do you how do you engage with AI and the tools in your day-to-day?

Yeah. I mean, I think. So far I find it just like an incredible tool for research. If I double check it, you know, like I just find like, Hmm, I remember I heard this thing and I want to use it for inspiration and I can find it so easily or like find us a hundred versions of it so easily and learn more. So like just from like a groundbreaking sort of like baseline of research, I find it fascinating.

yeah

Um, I think, you know, I think it's really interesting for tone of voice and writing work. um and like ideating i almost use it as like someone to brainstorm with if that makes sense but like very rarely does it spark the idea if ever um but it's kind of like throwing a lot at the wall and having somebody in there that can just kind of put the one hundred sticky notes up you know um i find it a lot less useful on the visual front i just find it so generic and i find it um

Yeah. that's really yeah

lacks any humanity and I just think that maybe the technology is still catching up and hopefully ah there are some boundaries being put in place around copyrighted and artist work because that worries me a lot. But I don't find it as helpful on the visual for it yet. I'm curious about you though.

of You said something about it's it's a great sort of brainstorm or a research partner, um which I totally agree with, but that it's it's rarely like giving you the the nugget of the idea that you're gonna be pulling on, right?

Yeah.

It's like, it gives you lots of different threads to pull on once you've given it the idea.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, or, or talked about it or been like, how does this sound? What is this? Yeah. Give me different perspectives. Um, what am I missing? Like who would argue this?

Yeah.

What would a counter, you know, an argument to this be?

yeah

Um, what I, so yeah, I mean, I use it in the, in very similar ways. Um, I, I'll ask it to give me like 20 variations on a headline for a blog post just to be like,

Yeah.

what might sound different. um If I ask it, you know, if I just say, though, like, here's the blog article, give me a great title.

Right.

um It's just usually pretty shitty.

can Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's really true.

Somebody said, it's like all flowers and no heart. And it is a very flowery.

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, if you think about it too, though, just when you when you think about the amount of information out there that's been amassed, it's pretty whitewashed stuff, right?

Even

Like there's so much less diversity in our just internet archives and like this the the folks, you know,

Yeah.

with the power and with the privilege to archive things online. Like it skews white, it skews generic, it skews probably Eurocentric. Like I don't have like the data behind that so much, but I've seen what comes out when you ask it to create an image, you know, and I've seen how um lacking a nuance it can be. It just feels like you're asking a robot to do a thing. Like, and it's very, very generic.

Yeah.

And that's just, I think, you know, in part, not all the voices are equally elevated.

Yes, and that leads me to the question, have you tried creating a custom GPT at all. Because the idea behind that is you know you can train it on your own or or someone else's you know voice and information and books and all of that.

a Yeah.

And then you're you're sort of supposed to be kind of working in this purity bubble of you know just whoever it is that you've trained it on.

Yeah, I have.

um Have you explored much of that?

And I, you know, I think I do think again, it's like further along in voice that it is in visual.

Yeah.

But I still find it very flat and almost almost cliche in a weird way. Like I often find that sometimes the sound bites just don't add up to the same way.

yeah Yeah, they're cringeworthy often.

Yeah, like you have to really, really check. Like, and I, what's funny is I think a lot of people are using it as a tool on that silver bullet and they're not, you know, like the cover letters and like, I think there's a lot of folks using it that are not checking it, but the the signs are all there.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, pro tip, do not use it for your cover letter.

Yeah, please don't, please. We all can go.

Another thing too, don't let it just rewrite. It's very It's very pushy. It will just take liberty and rewrite your stuff.

Yeah.

If you don't say specifically, don't rewrite it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tell me where and why you might make a change, whether that's grammar or flow or tone.

Yeah. Totally.

But I want to see your process and I want to know what you're recommending because 90% of it I'm going to ignore because it'll strip the personality and realness out of it.

It really is about how skilled and I think smart the people are that are using it. And so that's where it gets a little worrisome, potentially.

Yeah, I mean, there's a there's a long tail element of this that builds on you know all the other long tails that have created that have been created um where you're just going to have, you know they were shallow little pockets, right? of Even if it was complete you know conspiracy theory or fake news or whatever, they were still limited in how how much, how much the volume could be in each one of those little kind of fringe

Sure. How amazing. Yeah, totally.

marketets And I think the the the ability of for AI to create and generate so much stuff, again, like I said, that passes the sniff test to your average viewer or reader, ah that's going to make for a very very interesting future, right?

Yeah. And I mean, we have to really watch, I think, to to maintain a discerning eye and ear, right? Like that's going to take effort. That's going to take work because they it's going to get better. The noise is going to get more consistent.

So this goes back to an interesting question that I used to ask, you know, years ago. I was like, why is it that someone who, you know, is not an artist, but just, you know, likes Monet's, right? And has a Monet calendar in their kitchen and just really likes the pretty pictures.

um one Yeah.

That person will You know, nine times out of 10, if there's going to be a big Monet exhibit coming into the museum near that person, that might be the thing that like they might go to a museum to see those paintings in real life.

Mm hmm.

Why? Does someone who is not like an avid art fan, but is the the buyer of the calendars, you know what compels them to become that crossover? I want to engage with something in real life. And if we take that question and then move it to where we are today, how much do you think people are going to care if they're you know the the Super Bowl ad they're watching was created by humans or created by AI?

Yeah. I mean, this is like the optimist pessimist on my shoulder here and I have to like decide which way humanity is going to go. So it's a very big question. I mean, ultimately. When it comes to a Super Bowl ad, who cares when it comes to a politician? Speaking in a crowd it matters a lot right so like that's where Like I tend to agree with you that Just like folks aren't checking the sources of what they're resharing on whatever their favorite social media platform is but a Lot of people just don't care where it came from they care What friend of theirs or perceived friend of theirs shared it right so this sort of democratizing has made it

Right.

information is so peer to peer that like, whether or not it's true or false or AI or real production. And I do think AI will probably reduce the need for real production and that industry will be really deeply affected. But like, I think that it's just going to be a lot harder to tell what the truth is.

Yeah.

And I, my negative side, my pessimistic side is saying, how much do people care whether this is true or not? how How much are people just choosing what they want to believe? And that's where I want to go open up a lemonade stand somewhere and leave society and live in the mountains.

Yeah.

I don't really know what you do with that, but that is a big fear I have.

Yeah, I think that's a I think that's a very universal fear. um ah Very, very real fear.

Yeah.

And I don't think anyone really knows how it's going to go. Right.

Nope.

But um

For sure.

Yeah, i I mean, I hate to think that the most prophetic piece of media, you know, in the last 2000 years is going to end up being the movie Idiocracy, but it might be ah just where we're going.

Yeah, right?

um Everything is getting very easy for a lot of people. And so why? Yeah, why have to think outside the box or work that hard?

On the other hand, maybe the voices that are shouting, oh my God, no, you have to look at this will be louder, right? Like maybe there's a possibility that the more the masses sort of follow this same formula What is that movie? not the ah Don't Look Out, sort of a similar kind of an idea.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Great movie.

like There are people that are so like amazed and irate and loud about how like, no, this is crazy, pay attention. um I mean, the movie doesn't end well, but there's there's a part of me that thinks that like the smart voices, the discerning voices, the people that are seeing what's happening will find new and innovative ways to be heard. and The noise will be so consistent that possibly it'll be easier to hear them. I don't know. It'll be a very interesting, it's a very interesting time to be alive and creating.

Yeah. It is, it is. I mean, part of me thinks that everyone's just gonna kind of pull back from all of this connection and noise and um doubt.

Sort of swing the other way.

Yeah, I mean, and just sort of be like, yeah, let's let's meet in the pocket park and have lunch together and read the newspaper and find out what's going on you know in our neighborhoods.

Yeah.

and um because the physical, you know, you kind of look around sometimes and a COVID was an interesting experience to go through with this, but you kind of look around and you're like, well, this is actually my world. So I could sit and spend all day reading about and freaking out about all this stuff, half of which may be real or not. But when I turn the computer off or I put my phone away, what's actually here?

Yeah, right in front of me.

And what matters, right? And how much of that am I missing, you know, or not tending to because of this?

I think a lot of us during the pandemic really like had that same similar revelation.

Yeah. yeah

That sort of forced isolation, forced slowing down, for lack of a better word, was pretty eye-opening, at least for me, and I know for some others.

Yeah. I was, I mean, I was okay with it. I didn't, I mean, obviously it didn't, like all the people, you know, getting sick and dying and it's terrifying what this, you know, just means in terms of the future and the next pandemic and all of that, but I didn't mind the slowing down and the kind of focusing on family and neighbors and who was around physical, your physical world.

Yeah. Right. What was right in front of you? Yeah. Yeah.

um So it's, but, you know, with AI and everybody being remote and virtual now, it's a really different kind of career path for somebody who's just getting started.

Yeah.

And I'm you know and i'm seeing a lot of people that had good you know confidence in their careers and were more established suddenly be getting laid off or you know companies are shifting or downsizing in a lot of these areas, in the creative services, in digital, in brand, in marketing.

Yeah.

So I think it's become a very volatile market and what you know what do you think people need to be focused on if they want to get into it? like What matters now that's different than what used to matter 20, 25 years ago?

Yeah, I mean, I think like most things that silver bullet is not there. And I ah really wonder how my career would have gone had I had um those kinds of barriers. when I was a young creative, because so much about being strong in your creative, in your craft and in your pursuit of good creative is the confidence that, the confidence you earn over multiple kinds of different, what do you call it? Like sort of paths, right? Like I had a lot of intersecting paths that got me to where my career is. And I have confidence now based on those successes. and or the things I learned along the way. and And if you're constantly sort of stopping and starting the way the economy has forced people to be, I mean, I think the probably the most important thing is to don't not forget that building relationships is sort of the key to figuring out like who and where you want to work and where you're going to do your best and thrive. But also I think it's really important to remember, and I think I kind of just found this out again about myself. to keep making in some shape or form. If that is the career you want, you know, like the career that I have and the the job that I do is not all the facets of me as a creative person, but it fulfills a lot of that. And I have a drive for it. And I think creatives are just are driven, right? Like they're driven by this desire to make things. And I think make things that matter. And so in the face of sort of the stopping and starting and the number of people who don't know who they're firing, right? Like it's happening in these large groups of people.

Yeah.

And like some of the most talented folks I know have been laid off from various places or have had stops and starts in their career based on what's happening in the world. I think it's just so important to keep making, keep making things, whatever those things are and like not being precious about it, but keeping that, that sort of drive going.

Yeah I think um you know, I have this painting behind me, i've I've returned, you know, I've taken longer gaps from painting so over the course of my career at different times, but when I've been at my most disrupted professionally, um or and it's really because it's the path that got me, you know, on my career path. it was it was It all started with making paintings, with creating things. you know That was the foundation that that started it all. And when every time I return to it, you know I learn new things that I can apply to everything.

yeah.

um You don't need a client or a ah job or a task you know or an opportunity to explore those ideas in whatever it is that you that you do and your on your own time.

yeah.

um how How much do you think those kinds of things are are of interest to see like when a young designer or creative is applying for a job and they might have like here's you know my portfolio of professional things or school assignments or whatever and then they might have their fine art section or their like hobby section or their writing or whatever it might be. How important do you think that is? Do you pay attention to it? Does it factor into you how you think of them as a As a young creator.

Yeah. So, I mean, I do, I pay attention to it. And I think what it, what I appreciate about it is I don't think it's a requirement. Some people aren't going to be fine artists or illustrators and designers or, you know, strategists and creators. Like, but to me, the versatility of idea generation is really important. Being able to seek different kinds of. inspiration, being able to to use different medium to communicate ideas is a really, really valuable skill. And I think sometimes, I don't know if you feel this way about art school, but art school set me back a little bit in that I got so incredibly precious about things I made and how I had to make them and the bar they needed to meet, that it kind of got in the way of my creativity. And I think when I see somebody that's got their line art illustrations and their sculptures and their design work on their, and they're in their book, you know, I'm like, that's interesting. Like they can explore ideas and communicating with others, working by themselves, working with others, working in this medium, working with that medium. And generally I find that those are more the people that are more able to ideate the people that I want at the idea table.

Yeah.

um

And it shows that drive, too.

You know, not just production, but like ideas and that applies to branding and applies to campaign. It but applies to everything.

Yeah.

Websites, you know, user journeys, like you name it. I think that having that kind of thinking unlocks a lot more.

Well, it takes it takes some bravery, right?

It takes a lot.

And some lack of ego.

Yeah.

You can't be too precious. Like you said, I struggle with the same things, you know?

Yeah.

and um There's nothing that will crush your ego faster than like starting a blank canvas day after day, you know.

It's really true. Well, and I think that, you know, I've gotten some good advice recently from a former professor of mine I reconnected with who I just think is a really brilliant teacher and maker. And he was like, give yourself a couple of it. This sounds so obvious, but give yourself a couple of small assignments, sort of themes, whatever, but like, don't sit there and think I got to get to the studio. Or like, I'm going to do this many hours in the studio this year. He's like, you're going to sit there. It's the blank canvas. He's like, you're go just going to spin when you get in there and that time is wasted. So like, You don't have to show it to anyone. You don't have to put it on a wall. You can if you want to, but like, don't go in there with, I have to sell this or I have to put it on a wall. Like go in there with a couple themes and see which one hits and strikes you and that you can, you know, lose yourself in.

yeah

And I was like, that's such a simple suggestion and it's gotten me back in the studio so many times already.

yeah it's

So the other thing I think is really interesting is like, even if you don't put your, your fine artwork, for example, or your photography on your portfolio. Cause like, maybe that is your private work. Like that's okay too. But I think what's really interesting is taking the time to work on your own and being able to work in a group.

Yeah.

Like I work in an agency so much as collaborative, but I am so much better at it.

Yeah.

If I take the time for my part by myself, like idea generation as an as an isolated artist or creator is so important and sort of sometimes forgotten, I think, once you get out into the world.

Yeah, well, it's a different process, right, how you evaluate your own ideas.

Mm hmm.

You know, like, I've always i've kept a sketchbook since I was, you know, 14 years old, and I use my phone now for the same things. Like, anything that I find interesting or pops into my head, I just try to record it, write it down, take a picture of it, because I i never know where it's gonna start to inform things.

Mm hmm.

And

Yeah.

The same thing too, I'll just literally pick up a but a brush and just put paint on a canvas with no other, it's just the physical, it's like getting my steps in, you know?

Yeah.

um And then sometimes I might see something in that, you know, a few days later and that will take me off on a journey. So it's, I love inviting, me yeah, I love inviting that that that in, but at a certain point,

The two year journey. Yeah, that's true.

in the professional world of you know creative services and and brand and strategy, like the goal is to connect and to cause a reaction from that engagement.

Mm-hmm.

So it is a lot more than like your own you know sharing your own internal creativity, um It's a lot more of like connecting with audiences and and and making that meaningful in whatever way it needs to be meaningful.

Yeah.

and That's not a solo process.

That's not a solo pursuit. And what's interesting is like, I feel like in my professional world, I'm constantly pointing that out. So for example, you know, I do all this work with nonprofits I have for many, many years. And the number of times that I have to very gently sort of say, yeah, but you want this brand or this thing, whatever this thing is to resonate with a person like this or this group of people, right? That is not you. That is not you, eat executive director. That is not. You board of trustees, lead person, like you all have very good instincts about this work or you wouldn't be here, right? Like you're obviously leaders, but this brand, this design is not meant to speak to you.

Yeah.

And it's okay if it doesn't, as long as it lands with the people that you want this next generation of donors, you want this next generation of activists. They may not have the same taste as you. They may not have the same drive things that drive them. And we have to understand that. Like that's what you're paying us for.

How many times do you have that conversation and then realize you're talking to like, you know, a narcissist or someone with a personality disorder who who clearly

Well, I don't know if I should reveal that. I mean, I will say I have that conversation probably at least twice to three times a month with different clients. We have a lot of clients at the same time, but like I have that conversation a lot because it doesn't occur to everybody. Like you get in it when you're in a creative process and we're really collaborative in the way we engage our clients and like they're in it, but we have to constantly sort of remind that it's not about what they are drawn to. It's about the audience, the audience, the audience. And, you know, I would say. You know, maybe eight or nine times out of 10, I think that that works. Like you're talking to smart people who generally know that I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

And I can, if I can get them to look at it that way, they understand and can like, you know, sort of a push us, approve us in the right direction. Like that is their job that in that space is to approve us in the right direction and know we know what we're doing and talking about and that we're strategic about it. there's always going to be every 10, every nine or 10, there's always going to be one that says, no, I'm going to make my board happy.

Yeah.

Excuse me. Um, and you know, I think it's better actually when clients are just transparent about that because it saves us all a lot of time.

Yeah.

It's a huge disappointment and it's, it's a shame because I've luckily been able to work with a lot of clients with some really powerful brands. And to see that sort of power wasted when there's good to be done in the world is hard for the silliest of reasons.

yeah Yeah, it's for such petty. for such a silly, very silly reason.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, do you want this to be an effective organization or you want, you know, your board of trustees to be happy?

Right. Just want everyone to admire the, whatever want do it yeah, admire the window shades or the, yeah, the new new carpet.

Like, you know, and yeah, I mean, at our best we'll make everybody, well you know, everyone will come on board, but you know, that's not usually the case.

Well, especially when you've got, you've got to prioritize certain audiences, right? I mean, you've worked in with complex organizations.

Yeah.

I know, I mean, I remember seeing just shock on the faces early on with my higher ed clients when I said like, here's the long list of audiences that you need to speak to.

Yeah.

We're going to put them in ranked order because we are going to prioritize what

hu Makes people very uncomfortable.

One is going to be at the top, and we are going to all agree that one is more important than all the others.

Oh yeah, it's not a popular conversation to have.

No.

I mean, it's also like, what's it interesting to me is that a lot of times in the higher ed space, in the nonprofit space, which is has some similarities, um it's like a lot of times what motivates these multiple multiple audiences is very similar.

Yeah, very.

So like you can center what motivates people and still make sure that the journey is designed for the first audience on the list that they give you.

ah Yeah.

Because they're the ones using the website or they're the ones like really interacting with the brand. Like you can make that hierarchical list. It doesn't mean that others are less important.

Yeah, I also think that it comes, I think the desire to like cater to all the audiences, especially high rights and nonprofits, it comes from a place of empathy, right? And so sometimes you just have to remind them like, hey,

Inclusion. Yeah.

that is really great that you care and you want to be inclusive, but this audience is not expecting to hear from you here. They're not expecting it.

Right.

It would actually be kind of rude for you to try to talk to them here.

Yeah.

um They're gonna go here and that's fine.

Yeah.

that's what <unk> That's what they're used to doing. They're not gonna be offended by doing that.

No.

and And they'll miss it if you try to but talk to them while you're talking to everybody else right here. So it's okay.

Yeah.

who's Who is the audience that really expects to be taught you know spoken to or engaged with here? like let's Let's just talk about that a little bit.

Well, then how can you make sure like to lean into that empathy, right? Sometimes it's about doing no harm to these other audiences, right? Like if this is a website for a program for educators and parents, I don't want kids in the program to look at that site and be like, how am I being talked about here?

Yeah.

Like, dude, these adults don't get me. Or like, you know, like, what is this thing about?

Yeah.

Like, I don't want to be associated with it. Like I i want to come from a place of audience empathy. I think you can do that and still gear a product, like a website.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

or ah you know to to the audience that's using that tool.

yeah

And it's actually quite simple. And and you can back that with a bunch of data that you know they might have one student for every 100 parents that come to that site or 100 educators. like The data is the is the piece that it's hard to ignore, hopefully. We try.

You would think, right?

you know We try.

Yeah, you would think. um So i one last question I'd love to kind of dig in on that you you sent over, which is a great one, um which is, what is like the curse of of the curse of death? um what What does inevitably, as as you've worded it, ah what inevitably takes great creative and makes it just average? It's a great question.

I should have like, uh, prepared my answer. Uh, I mean, I, I, I think, I mean, and I'm very curious in your, your career if this is very similar, but you know, it is inevitably the watering down of an idea and that is like the most simple way to put it.

Yeah, I mean, I've got to think about it. Yeah.

But usually the strongest brands, right? Double down on who they are fully, authentically, deeply. They don't care about the haters. They don't care about, um, every board members, personal color associate, you know, they double down on what is authentic about their brand and organization.

Yeah. yeah

You know, what is the thing that they are there for? They exist for, and who's that person they exist for? Right.

Yeah.

And it was almost impossible to get a large consensus group of empathetic, smart people through a process where. they will all come to the same conclusion about what that looks like. So it's that watering down of the idea that happens chip after chip after chip, you know, like we're gonna please this person here and this person here and change this like word and change. It's just that like chipping away of good ideas.

yeah

And, you know, essentially not knowing where someone needs to be an approver versus a contributor and it can really all fall apart.

So, yeah. ah how How do you combat that? I mean, a few phrases, sort of industry catch phrases come to mind, right? Like design by committee, um you know, the never ending revision rounds, um final, final, final, final, right?

Yes. Oh, final, final, final underscore relies.

Like out of scope, ah change orders.

Yeah.

But I mean, you know, it's a slippery slope, right? How do you, And how do you do you even show a client, you know, if you're showing three options and one of them is already kind of the watered down one, you know,

Totally depends on who the people are in the room because I've done it both ways and sometimes had success. um Like some people really need one that they can be like, I hate this. And then they'll pick from the good ones.

yeah

And then there's other clients who are like, this is about getting to know your clients in discovery.

yeah

But like the other clients that are like, Oh, maybe that horrible one is worth considering. And you're like, Oh God, this was a bad, bad gamble. um I mean, the only way I've ever circumvented this, the only way I've ever prevented it is to sell people upfront on the kind of process I want to run. And that is an audience empathy process. That is a deeply collaborative process, but it is not an everyone in the room is a decider kind of a process. It is a, these are the goalposts. This is where regimen and and process really can save, I think, creative.

Yeah.

It's just, these peep this is the approver, the single approver if possible.

Yeah.

And these are the folks that are going to help shape it along the way. And this is where we're going to let you. And then this is the part where we are professionals in an industry of creative where we have studied and worked to be good at a craft. And this is where you have to trust us. And you can get a partner on board with that process up front. It's the only time I think I've ever really been fully successful because almost inevitably there's some curveball along the way or someone that gets and engaged at the end that hasn't been a part of the whole thing or hasn't agreed to those sort of norms up front and you know some things are more watered down than others but but that's where the fail happens almost every time.

Yeah, the trust is such a key ingredient. If you can have ah a you know ah an experienced client who has the trust in in what you're doing, well, first of all, you can move so much more quickly.

It is.

um

Yeah.

you know We've been able to engage with clients lately that because there's trust, where it's like we're 5x'ing on the timelines because we don't have to go through all the little like delicate baby steps of like, okay, now we're gonna do this and now we're gonna show you that.

Yeah.

We're like, can we um take a look at your brand, maybe consider some differences? They say yes, we can show them an entirely new different brand and they will consider it.

yeah

um because it is it is rooted in really knowing them, really knowing where they're trying to go and being kind of a partner in that as much as you know ah ah client or a vendor. um The dog knows that children are home, so he wants to go to say hi, which is probably a good time to wrap it up. um This has been an awesome conversation. oh I could go on and on with you forever.

I know I love talking with you. I should do it again sometime.

Let's do it again. Thanks for bringing um a not 100% feeling voice to go.

Yeah, sorry. The cough drop.

No, I think ah we're going to have like, this will be the sexy voice podcast.

season Little Yeah.

Yeah. the I'll put that in the trailer. This one is with the sexy voices. ah No, thank you.

Likewise.

I'm just such a fan of your work and your thinking and you. um So I really appreciate this.

like

And I hope our conversation will be inspiring, helpful. um provide a little camaraderie to anybody who listens.

Yeah.

so All right, until then, hang in there and I'll talk to you again soon.

Hope so. All right. Take care.

All right, bye.

Bye.