Yianni Mathioudakis and Monica Sanchez: DEEO

All right, here we are with another episode of Escape Velocity, um jumping right in. I don't have any fancy fancy intros or anything. And ah today I am talking with my dear friends, Monica Sanchez and Yianni Mathioudakis, who are also the founders and co-partners of the design studio DEEO. And very fortunate to be working with them right now on things and having worked with them in the past for many years. um Monica, Yianni, thank you so much for joining me on this very smooth entry to our podcast. and ah And just a great smooth day of life, just another day of everything working out exactly as we intended.

It's been super smooth. Yeah. This is ah in the win column for sure.

Another gold star.

Thanks. Thanks for having us. This is exciting. I feel like we've been talking about this for so long and finally doing it, although most of our conversations are probably related to some sort of podcasting material.

I know. we We probably should have just been recording everything.

three

I mean, I always do. I often do think Bravo really did miss out with not just being cameras rolling for a good chunk of our time together.

Yeah.

um Oh, well, their loss, our win.

Oh my gosh.

So before we kind of dive into wherever this conversation takes us, which is, you know, thank you guys for being up for essentially a non-formatted podcast. um But you get the rough gist, but I'd love for you guys to just talk a little bit about, you know, tell everybody who you are beyond what I've done and and what you're up to.

Sure. um i I don't know if Yianni's still with us, but...

Oh, no. The theme for the day. Well, he looks happy wherever he is.

Is in retrograde or something? Like, specifically for us? Like, what is happening right now?

He feels like it's something with Uranus, but I could be wrong.

that is for real and he just like slapped him and uh so I think he's like did I freeze or did we all freeze are you still in the room um let me just tell I don't do you want me to keep going or what do you want me to do all right okay

You froze. We froze. We all froze together. Let's see if he can get back in. This is just yeah we're we're this is live action podcasting.

There are new no restart buttons. um Yeah, so I agree. Yeah, let's just go with it. um Let's see if he gets back in. um Okay, so yeah, we are DEEO. We started this a year ago, the creative studio. um It's been a thrill and a blast and it's just been such an amazing experience. We come from a lot of history with you. We have a great relationship in terms of like, creating wonderful work and I think we're just sort of re-tapped like tapping back into that and it's been really exciting to Partner with you on some things because it feels very natural in some ways um But yeah um co-founder of DEEO. I work, I do mostly like strategy work and accounts. And the the great thing about the situation is I really get my hands dirty on everything. I can work on the creative stuff. I can work on strategy. I can work, you know, really in anything with Yianni and that's been really fun. So yeah, he's back.

perfect time to mention Yianni because he's back with us.

hey

Hey, you know, we we went we we discussed whether this had anything to do with mercury or Uranus.

lesson Hey.

Could be both.

It could be both.

Might be a little bit of both for sure.

yeah else Feels like a little bit of both. But ah yeah, um Monica was just kind of giving an intro to

Yeah.

um you know, our past and but DEEO and what you all are up to and talking about having um her hands in a little bit of everything now, which is one of the joys of being your own small company is that you're forced to yeah have your ass in a whole bunch of different seats.

Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

all

It's true.

Sure. Yeah, it's funny. It's like, you don't realize, you know, how much is involved in running a business until you're actually, you know, in charge. And it's like, um, you know, now it's not only do the responsibilities that we were doing before, and and now it's like, maintain the business, you know, handle the administration part of it, set up the bank account, do all the taxes, like all that stuff adds up. But, um, It's all worth it in the end. It's definitely all worth it in the end.

Okay.

A lot of fun.

Yeah, i um you know i I think everybody should, if they have the that is it the desire um to do it and they think they've got the time and can handle the stress, everybody should should try being their own boss.

yeah

Uh huh.

and um you know it's ah it's ah It's a great learning experience no matter what happens from it, but I do think that It's um a lot, all that little stuff. It is just little stuff. It could be done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

um It's, but it does just take up a lot of time. And when you've got kids and, you know, spouse and friends and just life is happening too.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes um the idea of just checking in at nine and checking out at five, getting your paycheck, like I get that too, you know?

yeah Yeah, for sure.

yeah

So one of the things, um that I've, ah my whole life been kind of really interested in is like, how do you break through barriers? How do you, you know, if you see something that's a problem or you feel like it's holding you back, you, I mean, identifying it and being self-aware and, or just aware enough to say like, oh, that is, that is a, I feel like that is a ah blocker for me. That is an obstacle. i don't i mean I think that's the easy part, but what do you do about it? and you know I have learned a lot about how to maneuver through those things um just by the nature of being a ah painter, being an artist. you know I face a blank canvas all the time, but also you know that doesn't relate to everything. um so In regards to like starting your own company, Where did you have to kind of do the the biggest pushes? Where were the hardest parts along the way that you had to find a way to like get through it and break through?

I think one of, I can, I can address this Yianni for me.

yeah

I think one of the things, and I'm sure you have, there's probably a long list of things that we could talk through, but you know, for us, I think fortunately we had a really clear vision of not exactly what we wanted to do. There was a really clear vision of what we didn't want to do and sort of, you know, the direction we wanted to head. And we found like, We found a lot of inspiration in others, right? So we used a lot of different channels and mediums to kind of define our voice and like the the the brand that we wanted to represent, right? um And I think a lot of that is still evolving. And I think one of the keys for empowering yourself and and setting yourself up for success and creating that sort of breakthrough moment is to be really patient because it does not happen overnight. You know, I think Yianni and I were incredibly passionate about doing this thing.

Yeah.

It takes courage, right? It takes courage to say like, okay, I'm leaving this thing that's pretty stable and has been, you know, pretty consistent over the last few years. i'm kind of walking away from that into the complete unknown.

yeah

um You know, we had a really, we were really, really excited and passionate about what we wanted to do. And the reasons behind why we started DEEO were really much really based in our, our need as like humans to be creative and find that creative outlet. And so a lot of the work that we do is very much because we're interested in right in that and that drives our or dedication to this thing that is now our jobs. um But I think the idea that patience and really acknowledging the little things are just as important as the big things is is really and important to have those breakthrough um moments because they don't happen. I mean, people say they happen overnight and they're, you know, it's like check into the viral thread and like make sure you're doing these things to do the equation and it's like you could do that and you could be viral for one day and then nobody knows who you are the next so for us it's like breakthroughs have to be meaningful and have something tangible that feels right to us and that in order to create that experience it doesn't happen for us like over days or weeks it's like months

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, you know, you you and Yianni, I want to jump to you really quick.

yeah

But Monica, I think what you said earlier about and you knew what you didn't want to do is just as important as knowing what you want to do.

Uh huh. Uh huh.

And, you know, I'll never forget, like, All I knew when I started my first agency was what I didn't want to do. The kind of culture I didn't want, the kind of clients I didn't want, the kind of boss I didn't want to be, the kind of team I, actually the team was the only, I had, that's why I took some of the jobs I took early on was to work with people that I really was excited to work with. But having that list of things that I knew I didn't like was just as strong of a navigational tool for me as, I mean, i yeah, I wasn't too sure about anything else except none of this shit.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 100% agreed. We felt very confident in the things that we did not want to do or the roads that we did not want to travel, which helped really define and and clear a path for where some of that preliminary structure of where we are now. But then we were really able to insert our own creative thought and feelings behind what DEEO is now and it's and it's wild to look back. We did look back and some of the stuff are like, I can't believe we wrote like some things down, but it it informed who we are in some ways, so.

yeah

yeah like You've got to carve out room for for what you're going to be to grow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hm.

And so by knowing what you by knowing what the weeds are and what to cut out, you know you have to know what that is so that there's room.

Mm-hmm.

But to expect the room to be filled immediately, um that's where you do need the patience. And you need to like plant seeds and just have confidence that you've given yourself the space and the time. that they can grow. And Yianni, you know, being more of a practicing creative, right, in terms of like, you do the design and good Lord, he's frozen again.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

I'm here. Can you see me?

Yianni, can you hear us?

I can hear you. Can you hear me? No.

This is this is definitely Breakthrough, right?

Can you hear me?

Oh, God.

This is a breakthrough moment for Yianni.

I know. Oh, he can hear us. Well, I don't think we can hear you, though, bud.

I can hear you.

Oh, yeah.

Hold on.

Sorry.

Maybe rejoin. um When he gets back on, we're going to have to get him to like give us some beautiful thought.

Yeah. check your Check your charts, your astrological charts.

Yeah.

Let's see if this is your anus.

No, i i mean while he's coming back to us, um he shall return.

He shall return.

I was say you know i know we talked about earlier your idea for like maybe what we wanted to talk through. And I didn't want to spend too much time on it because I think naturally we just like we get into this flow and this rhythm and our cadence is very natural. um But I did think like one and when I was thinking about breakthroughs, it was really funny. There he is.

Oh, I can't hear you, though.

this is This is crazy. um I think one of the things that I was thinking of, I think today, so we had a conversation today, right?

Yeah.

And it was frustrating for me because I felt I wasn't delivering or I was misreading what we had discussed in the plans. And I mean, let's be honest, the things that we talk about, like in general, when you're faced with a really challenging when you're faced with something that is very challenging, right? It's not a problem. It's something that we go after. you know Collectively, we went after this this thing, this work, because we were all we knew it wasn't going to be easy.

Yeah,

But the payoff for the work that we would create was going to be something really exciting.

yeah and we want, we like the challenge.

And so exactly.

We seek it out, but then, yeah, but then you keep, you keep beating yourself up.

Right. And I think that that's a part that happened today. um

I saw.

Yeah. And that's just it. So like, I think that's what after the I, obviously, it was a hard call. And it was a hard conversation. And i I had to step away and just be like, look, I need to get my thing, like I need to get my thoughts together. But when I revisited, okay, preparing for this conversation, when I sort of was thinking about breakthroughs. I'm kind of glad that that happened before this conversation because I think it's really easy to list all of the positive things and like here's what you need to focus on. and like Of course, people say it's not smooth sailing, right? and Anyone who's like, it's easy is but the full of shit. but finding ways to work through the challenges and the hard times, right? The challenge we seek, right? The challenge we seek because we are actively like, this is not easy, this is not predictable, there is no pattern, there is no checklist, that's us, right?

Right.

um That does not come easy. And the thing is, we collectively, we all approach that as like knowing it's gonna be a challenge. So we keep an open mind and we aren't, We don't get stuck in ruts where we're like, this isn't feeling right. I can't. I can't keep going. But today that kind of happened, right? Where I was like, this is really frustrating for me. It really doesn't happen all that often. but to keep, like to stay focused, to to really find that breakthrough, right? Because we're close and it's gonna happen. But today it was just one of those days where like you have to acknowledge in order to stay focused and have that breakthrough moment, you do have to have days like this, right?

Yeah.

Where you're like, that was not a great day for me. um But I think in order to successfully work through those days, I was like, I'm so glad that that happened with these two people because I i didn't have to say anything, right? like You all knew like I was not having a good moment and I can be honest with you about that experience. You can relate to it, you sympathize with it, but you don't belittle it, right?

No.

So finding people that you can have those experiences with, right? Like you're doing work together and it's great, but you need to find a ah network, you need to put yourself with people that don't brush off your feelings of that was not a great day, right? And like that contributes to the breakthrough, right?

Totally.

Like the breakthrough happens when you surround yourself with people that are like, not only helping get to that point collectively of the breakthrough, but acknowledge when someone's struggling and are like, let's figure this out together. um I think that contributes to the breakthrough moments just as much as like, that was an awesome conversation.

Yeah. Totally. and And I want to see if Yianni's audio can break through now.

Can you hear me?

Yes, my God.

Oh my God. Yes.

Breakthrough.

Thank God.

I don't know what's going on. I usually have the good internet. Um, but of course I'm usually not in this room.

Well, you're in a really bad spot.

Yeah.

I thought I'd pick a different room with some better background, but obviously I chose poorly.

Yeah, you chose poorly.

Yeah.

I'm not belittling the choice. I'm just saying it was a poor one.

Yeah.

See, and I'm going to break through this.

Yeah. Just stick with it, Yianni. We're here for you.

Yeah, you're still pretty you're still pretty choppy.

Yeah.

I mean, if you need to relocate, it might not be the worst idea.

know i mean All right, let me move just in case so it doesn't do it again.

All right. I mean, it's worth a shot.

yeah

Yeah. we

Well, Yianni's relocating. um Monica, I think what you said kind of touched upon, I think, a notion a lot of people fall into. Or maybe there' are always they're always there from the get-go that like if we can just get the right check marks like all figured out, then it'll just be easy. And we can just check the marks. right So first of all, I think there are people who crave that.

Yeah. Oh, agreed.

but right

Yes.

and and need that and i And I'm not belittling it at all. Like if that is you, I understand you, I see you, and I get that. um And then I think there are also people who think that is the only way to solve a problem, is to establish those check marks so that you don't have to be constantly creating a new route every time. as someone who does like to face the blank canvas every time and not be like, oh, I'm going to just repeat that same thing, but it'll just be a slightly different picture. um I find that you know by not having all the check marks super clearly laid out, that there is more opportunity for exploration, for creativity, but that also introduces more risks.

Yes.

You have to, I think, have a higher tolerance for risk and a higher sense of confidence that it's still going to be great. like and so have I have faith. um But that is another level of courage that I think is not about like necessarily starting the company, which takes a tremendous amount of courage, but then to approach creative work from that perspective. um Especially, I mean, it's creative services. like They're going to pay us before we even start. Like with a painting, somebody's actually got to want it. um and buy it off the wall, but I've already made it. So Yianni, now that you're solidly with us, with a new ceiling fan, and it looks like better internet connection.

background, better internet. We'll go with it.

it's I think it's just fine.

Yeah.

um People aren't here for your backgrounds, don't worry. our one listener, which I mean my might be my mom.

Yeah.

But we were talking about, ah you know you I'm sure you heard bits and pieces, but like as a designer and photographer and you know someone that really kind of lives in that creative space and is used to, you've got to sit down and start with that blank screen.

Yeah.

um How do you feel like that and that idea of courage or knowing what you don't knowing what you don't want and that idea of faith, how does that inform you or not in what you do?

Yeah. It does a lot because I feel like um it's really easy when we we're talking about process to get locked into, this is the way we always do it. This is the format and we're going to follow these rules. and you know When you do that, it might make the project easier to to run through, easier to design, probably easier for the client to understand. But all of that at the risk of, I think, like creativity and innovation. right So it kind of like sucks your soul out a little bit.

Yeah.

So I think you have to be OK with being uncomfortable and just knowing that we're going to try some new things. Let's leave it open. We're going to explore. And we're going to be open to conversations of like, if we go down this path, it might not be the right path. And we're going to pivot. But we're OK to pivot. We're not going to just lock in and be like, all right, you know this is it. so

yeah

I think you just got to be open to exploration and ah for us, like curiosity and learning. um I think when I start a new design, I never want to do the same thing again. So like think thinking and brainstorming, like we had a brainstorm today, like like what can we do really? And just not get into design yet. Just talk about the ideas, have time to sit with it. um And then obviously I do think there is a point where it's like, all right, you do have the blank canvas. You got to get in there. Like you got to start trying these things because it's easy to talk about stuff forever.

Yeah, yeah, it's good when you can start reacting.

And it's right.

That's when the conversation starts to get more dynamic.

I agree, right? It's like when we showed you a couple of things and we were like, oh, like that means this and this might need to shift and we might need to do this type of thing. So I do think there's a point where it's like, there's a lot of, there's ideas and and conversations and places we can go, but sooner or later you got to sit down and just go for it and try it. And like I said, just be ready to to pivot and move um if you need to.

Uh huh. Uh huh.

you know we all um you know We all started working together a long time ago in ah in a past life, um or what feels like one. and you know For most of us, and especially for me when I when i started my first company and and even just got into digital and into interactive design, Um, it was also new. So like there was no process to follow. There was no like, here is how a digital agency does work. Um, we even know what to call it, you know, it was just like, I don't know. It's cool. I have no idea what's happening, but everyone, anyone in the world can see it. Once I figure out how to do it and get it up to wherever, whatever that means on the internet. Um, And so there was like, it was baked in that it was all going to be new and creative and innovative. And, and then, you know, 25 years later, um, it's sort of like, okay, well, yeah, websites digital. Um, it's just like another tool in the toolbox, but I feel like. a lot of us that came into it early on, there was this spirit of pioneering, the spirit of exploration and innovation. And I remember even like all the early digital agencies, like they all had like their R and&D or their lab section or you know like sharing their explorations.

Okay. Mm hmm.

And that's definitely died off as it as it's become more commoditized. um And like I love that you guys have spun up you know your own sort of lab, right?

um a lot

Yeah.

right exactly

um because you can't all like with some aspects of the business, I think you do need, you do, you can't use every client to do your wildest craziest like experiments on.

Yeah.

It's unethical. Um, but you, I don't know, like how do you, how do you decide, you know, which probably sound wrong, but like which itch to scratch where?

We just spun up a ladder. Yeah, it's it's yeah, I feel The same as you, like right now it's just such a like exciting time I feel for design and technology with like AI coming out. um All the new tools for designing like 3D software and browsers, no code tools like framer and unicorn.

yeah Yeah.

Like there's so much to play with and explore where I felt like five years ago, everyone was kind of locked into like, this is the framework for designing and building sites. Like we all do the same thing.

Yeah.

And if you want to try a 3D, you're going to spend a ton of money and you need to hire a bit.

And it still won't work anyway because nobody will be able to see it on the browser or whatever, yeah.

Right.

Mmhmm, mmhmm.

Exactly. So it's just like like you said, like we spun up the creative lab. It's kind of our outlet for experimentation and just trying things. Because I think for us, like that's kind of more of the work we want to do. We just want to do really creative, innovative, different work. And you know sometimes the clients Don't allow it's like doesn't fit where we're going with that project, although we always try to inject it. um So for, for now, it's just like what is I have a ah mood board in Figma that's like if I come across any kind of really cool design that just catches my attention or catches my eye and social anywhere, I save it. And I put it in this folder of like either things to explore, things to like try to replicate, things to just save. And I'm like, I love this.

yeah

Just keep that library and it comes in handy when there's a project that comes along and I'm like ah I like remember that and I'm like there's might be something related to that that I can explore so it's really just whatever it kind of at the moment sparks interest I think of it a little bit like um putting in reps at a gym, just like every day in the morning, try to do something for um of myself and for a DO that is, I know, going to be beneficial and just just do it, try it, learn it, see what I get, and then just keep doing it every day.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's something I've always um really admired about you and also just found inspiring was you you were all you were always progressing. You were always looking. You were always like... um I mean, and then, yeah, then when you got into CrossFit, like you took the same approach to that, but you already were that kind of person with your own, with with work, with design, um with creativity in general.

Yeah. Yeah.

and it's It's amazing to me how many people don't want to put in the work, right?

All right.

Whether it's, you know, like reading a book, listening to podcasts.

Okay. Yeah.

I mean, I have bookshelves full of art books that I'll look to for inspiration, for painting, business books, poetry, whatever, anything that can feed that can keep feeding my mind. um And you know I thought of about you, Yianni, when i was design i was I was interviewing some um junior designers recently. And one of the things I i asked them was, you know how do you stay inspired? How do you can ensure that you are professionally evolving um if this is your chosen field, right? How do you take charge of that? Because there's so much, right? Like, I'll get asked the question, you know, how does adeo provide professional development? And I'm just like, I will never say no to any idea you have or any place you want to go or something you want to do that I will i will never say no.

Right.

but you've got to want to do it on your own.

Uh-huh.

And it's amazing to me that um I will ask designers this question and they'll be like, oh, I don't really look at, I don't really, like I guess I don't really have a good answer for that. I'm like, you don't?

Red flag.

um what What are you doing? You know?

Yeah. know

It's a great question to ask because I feel it's so easy. Like, you know, I went to design school, went to MICA, got my, you know, degree in graph design. learned a ton, learned about the but fundamentals, but if you just stay there, it's just like, I mean, is that it? you know It's just like you become complacent with that. um and was I don't know, for me, it's just never enough. Like like you said, like you have all the books, there's podcasts, there's just like so much, there's just not enough time. It's like, I could do this stuff forever.

No.

It's just now finding the time and running a business and like doing all that.

Okay.

Yeah. Kids. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

It's right, family.

and Right. your time Your time is limited. And so you do have to get kind of ruthless about how you prioritize.

Mm hmm.

But to me, if you are a creative person or you're, you know, and and I consider running a business, whether it's a creative business or not, like running a business is creative. I think life is creative. I mean, I think that there's, Everything is going to change whether you want it to or not. It is a journey. It is a journey of obstacles to be overcome. I mean, life is nothing more than a series of problems to solve until we all reach the unsolvable problem.

Yeah. Yeah.

um But it until that point, like our job is to solve them.

Mm hmm.

um And there's a great enjoyment and satisfaction and growth in that. But I do think it's a mindset that um that requires you to to be careful that you don't fall into like just living your life with check marks and habits and just like, oh, this is the way it is and it will never change. um how do you Do you feel like you ah actively identify you know bad fit clients? like Can you tell if a client has an idea or wants to talk to you about a project that it's just like like, what are your red flags to not get sucked into something like that?

Yeah. Yeah.

I'll let Monica take that one.

Yeah, we have a pretty strong sense of who's going to fit the like kind of work model that we want. um the first year you know we The first year was really interesting. We learned a lot about ourselves the first year because for the projects going in, we were like, well, we're going to take whatever we can get, right? That's how we're going to get through this first year.

Right, but survival.

but Right. But I think the experience that we've had, and we talked to you so about some of these, right? Like where we were like, we're not getting the right feeling. We're not getting the right vibe. And you gave us some questions to ask. I remember like talking to you about a couple in particular, but we said no to clients, like a handful of clients our first year.

Do you know how big that is though? like I would love to get a poll of of other ah people, either freelancers, contractors, or but you know agency owners who said no to anything in their first year.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Wow.

absolutely

And like honestly, it set the tone, right?

Yeah.

Because we were like, if we're comfortable saying no, year one, month six, like we're going to be comfortable saying no, year five, year six, whatever.

Yeah.

um But it's funny you bring this up because when Yianni was talking about you know working with clients and working, our process is very flexible flexible and fluid to allow Yianni that creativity where when he was like, I'm going to try an idea out and if it doesn't hit, we can pivot, right?

Right.

The ideas that he's putting in front of people and like that we talk about and that we present with the clients that say yes are comfortable with him presenting something that's maybe a little bit too far because they know we can scale back or we do have to pivot and we're good for it. And I think that is a client who has confidence in their ability to know who they are, to give feedback, direct feedback and kind of go with the flow with us the entire time, right? So they have to ask the right questions to us in the beginning. And if they're not listening to our responses, that's a huge red flag for us because, you know, we we are, we try to be incredibly transparent because we know if they don't get the right vibe from us and they don't get the answers they need, then it's probably not a right fit and that's okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you.

yeah

But we don't want them to sign up for a project that they feel like they don't know anything about us, the work that we do or how we do it, because that's just not going to end well for anyone. And so whenever we've had those inklings or that itch, right, of like, I feel like we've said this six different ways, I feel like we're trying to convey to them, like, this is something we want to do, but like, here's what we can do with like, the scale of the project or like we keep having the same conversations but the goalposts keep moving or they just don't really understand the value. I think we talk a lot about finding and communicating the value in design and that's something that clients have a really hard time understanding sometimes and so all of those things are like big cues for us.

Right.

And if we get pushback or we're not the vibe, the energy, if it's not sinking in those early stages, then we're usually thinking, okay, this is probably, we're not the right fit for them and they're not the right fit for us.

Yeah. Yeah. um Well, again, I commend you all for just leaning into knowing who you are and and having that faith and that courage. um When You know, it takes a lot of courage on the client side too because so much of what we do um is invisible.

Yeah.

And so like, I do think it's communication and trust are like two of the most important things with ah with with a client. because you have to trust each other, um but the client has to be okay knowing that like there's going to be some risk. There's going to be some things, they might see some things that they don't respond well to, or they might we might have conversations that they're like, how is this going to turn? How is this going to translate into what we need? and What I think is great is just that like if we don't align around everyone's stomach for innovation, everyone's yeah everyone's got their sea legs.

Mm-hmm Yeah

to to knowing that, hey, if we get to if we're if the waves are too intense, you know we can correct course. um I think that a lot of people have had relationships with outside services providers, especially creative services providers, where they just have had kind of like microwaved baloney handed back to them. you know um so and i don't

what everybody What everybody, that's all over Yianni's mood board, by the way, that he was talking about, like, wake below me.

Which by the way, I do not know what microwave bologna tastes like.

I don't either, but it sounds awful.

absolutely Yeah. Yeah. Reheated bologna. Radiation reheated bologna. Although I don't think bologna is ever really hot to start out with.

and

In any case, I digress.

like

Yianni, why do you think it is that you can end up in a situation where warmed up baloney is the expectation. And if you want more that you're given a million reasons why that won't work. its it Is it about like budget? is it ah it Does it come down to money? And just if you've got people that are like, you don't have the time to reheat this baloney, again, or to go make something vegan over there because we've got the extra bologna and we just need to heat it up and make them eat it? Like, what is it?

Yeah, that's a good question. um I mean, I do think budget plays a huge part of it in it for sure. um But that being said, you know, we've gotten some smaller budgets to start off and we've made sure that it's not that, right? It's not, you know, it's so small. So we're gonna give you the heated baloney, right? We still want to have that room no matter the scope. So I also think your point to have like

Yeah.

they probably were burned in the past. So um maybe they want a bit more control over the project.

Yeah.

So they look at us as more of like vendors and just like, you all are just going to basically, we have the, tat we know what we want and can you just do exactly what we say? And that's obviously not a fit for us. Like we're here for our expertise and our ideas and we want to be a partnership with all our clients, um but we definitely don't still want to be there.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just like pixel, pixel push around and

Well, people are messy, right? And we're we're working with pixels and and zeros and ones and things that don't actually exist. And so what we're really left with is a bunch of messy people that have to trust each other and communicate really well and get through all the hurdles of the journey um with faith in each other that a good outcome will happen.

Yeah. Yeah.

And ah that is I think that it's people that make that so exciting and also so challenging.

yeah

So Monica, I'm really curious because you know you have decades of project management and account management experience, and now you're running everything. um

It's the biggest.

how how do you How much do you think the beginning signals about how the project will go and how much of that signaling is coming from the way that the way that people are communicating versus the parameters of the project, let's say. like Is the signal Are the red flags coming from the way people are talking about the process or the things they're asking for? Or is it is it literally that just that sometimes people don't have enough don't put enough value in something they can't necessarily put their finger on or give a number to?

That's a good question. i I think there's like a couple things that popped in my head when you were talking. So like right now, I think for us, because we are very transparent and very honest and we will immediately call out like, hey, something doesn't feel right. What's going on? Like we just want to gut gut check. We actually had one of those calls the other day, right? So like, that's really important that we feel like they feel comfortable with us and they can be honest with us. Early on, I think biggest sort of like time the only time I haven't really, we really haven't had that issue. with DEEO, which is great because I think we are very upfront about like the process and we're very visual too. So I think it helps sort of guide them in that that sort of early stage thing where they're not really looking at anything and they're really anxious, right?

Yeah.

So, right.

Yeah, you yeah you guys do you do keep that pain to a minimum, which I think is is awesome.

Right, so we try to do that, and I think we're receptive to, like, I'm receptive when someone very early on is like, we have to do these things during discovery or strategy. And I'm like, well, we don't technically, if it's necessary for you, right?

Don't you tell me what we have to do.

Like, trust me, I've been around, I've been around, I've done a couple of these, like, I don't need to talk, like, you know, like, I get it, I understand, i like, Let's talk about that. Let's unpack that and feel and understand where that like need to have this conversation is like coming from.

Yeah.

And then we work through it.

Yeah.

So that's sort of like how we deal with it. And I think that's one of my flags is when people are like, well, we have to do it this way because that I just say so. right And I'm like, that's not a that's kind of a concern.

Uh huh.

I'm trying to work through that. But I think, honestly, client, you have to be fair to clients too, right? And I think they're going into this and they're probably putting a lot of money into it. And this is, you know, everybody has a website now. So they've been through this before. Like we have to put ourselves sometimes in their shoes.

Yeah.

And I think when people come into these engagements and there is this very sort of process heavy approach where process is important, right? No one's saying that, but I think when we're talking about like everything has to be the same way, repeatable process, I think that puts client, that ah leave that sort of like puts everyone in a little bit of a mentality of like we're going through the motions and clients can pick up on that. um And I think not having the energy or the engagement right away with them is a huge turnoff for them, right? Like they're like, wait a minute.

Yeah.

Like I'm super excited about this. Like let's get into it. And if you're not meeting them where they are and you're not intelligently, it's intelligently engaging with them and having a conversation about why this might not be necessary or why we're recommending this thing. They deserve that.

Yeah.

And if you're not able to provide that, you really need to think about why. And it comes back to one thing that I think is really important for creating breakthrough moments is you are not the smartest person in the room and you shouldn't be. You should always be open to the fact that you can learn from someone else. And in order to do that, you have to acknowledge that you don't know everything. And that's not a weakness, that's a strength.

Mm-hmm.

Here, here.

Well said.

Wow. I feel like we should just drop the mic.

Are mics at work?

my book My book tour is going to be happening in January 2025.

ah

I'm kidding.

say Thank you for coming to Monica's TED Talk.

There is a book.

No, I think um

You got to be passionate.

That's true. Yeah.

yeah Yeah, but passionate without the ego, right?

yeah

100%. I care about people.

So it's like, you've got to be you've got to be okay if the great things that happen weren't all your great things that you brought to the table. And um yeah, and you've got to be secure enough to to be there.

Mm-hmm.

um that is a That is a rare trait.

ah

And I do think there is a level of um people try to protect themselves by acting like they know everything and they're gonna do everything and don't you tell me how and don't you weigh in and even if you have just an idea and you want to participate that's threatening so we're not gonna have time for that because you'll just mess it up because you're just some idiot like I do think that's an unfortunately prevalent attitude um amongst um creative people in particular

her ah her Yeah, I agree.

and creative agencies because I think that there is so much ego and fragility that that is lurking around in there, you know?

Mm hmm. I agree. And I think sorry, I just want to mention this. I don't want Yianni to chime in. But I think kind of goes back to what you said before, right? Like you and a lot of people like pioneered the unknown like 20 years ago with websites. Right. Like there was no playbook. There was no process. It was the wild west. Right. There is some, there is nothing wrong with feeling proud about navigating that and owning that and like defining that, right? Like there was no rhyme or reason to how things were created. And then people like you came around and you were like, well, there's a there is probably a method to this madness that opens us up to creativity, but still gets things streamlined and can like, we can do this, right? There is a way to do this in a smart way. And I think that there's like sort of two, after a while there's like two sort of like train tracks of thought where it was like, okay, we figured this out and like we're digging our heels in and like it is what it is, right? Because like we solved the problem and why change?

Right.

And like anything that's a threat to that sort of approach to change how things are like created, I get that sort of like,

If the name broke, don't. Yeah.

No, no, no, we don't need that, right? Because I get that because you did solve this problem and you and, but you.

Right. like don't introduce Don't introduce another track.

Right.

We've got to figure out how to get down.

Right. But I think it goes back to also what you were saying where it's like. You have to do that in order to stay innovative. like There are ways to introduce these new ideas and be open to it. Otherwise, you're not solving the problem. You're solving the problem from 20 years ago, not today. um And so that willingness to be open-minded is really important.

Yeah, I'd love to hear what Yianni has to say about this, but I don't think he's with us anymore.

um

Again, i

Can you hear me? No? What the hell?

This is typical designer.

I know. He's like, I'm only here for a couple of minutes. What do you want?

Right? I said what I had to say. Now you can just look at my pretty picture because I'm a handsome man and I'm piecing out.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God.

yeah

Yeah. That's what I mean. I'll tell you, he's the ringer. If we need to sign someone, I'm like, yeah, and he come back. I'm kidding. Is that terrible?

Oh, you know, that's all right.

He's smart. I love him. There he is.

Oh, we we were just um sexually harassing you while you were gone.

Am I here? Can you hear me?

I know, I was just like, how can we be saying this about him?

Oh, but wait, he's back, but he's not back still.

That's terrible. Oh my God, well.

Can you hear me? No?

It's been like the just, yeah, the internet.

Hello? Jesus Christ.

It's like he's fading in and out. I mean, for anybody who's just listening, even if we, if we even have published this, because it's just been a comedy of technical

I know. I know. I'm like, you're going to have to edit.

Well, I mean, we are talking about breakthroughs.

but I know.

So yeah, like you're going to have unexpected problems.

Yeah. Relevant.

Does that mean that the whole conversation is worthless?

Mm-mm.

I hope not. um Does that mean it might be slightly annoying to anyone else? Possibly.

Sure. That sounds a lot like the conversations we have. Anyone who joins it isn't like in the...

like i yeah oh well i guess yeah right Well, we're having fun.

I can't listen to you guys anymore. I know! We're doing great stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I do think it's just a, I think everyone has a tolerance for Yianni.

Oh, man. Mm-hmm. Oh my god, Yianni.

I don't understand.

I'm so glad you're back.

I'm a in and out guest today.

i was I was making the joke that you're just the typical designer, like so flaky.

so That's me. You got me.

Yeah.

I could hear hear and see both of you.

Yeah.

I heard you.

Oh, did you hear us making our inappropriate comments?

Yeah, I heard all of that.

Yeah.

Calling you man candy?

Yeah, all of that.

Yeah.

I couldn't respond.

Better than microwave bologna.

Yeah.

Yeah, let's not bring that back up.

Most of those podcasts, I'm just listening to you two, and I can't talk.

That's usually the case.

ah

I mean, I can

Obviously, can I say something and we're like, no, what?

um like They're like, we can't hear you, but you can, and you're just playing it off.

Mutating you.

Every time we try to catch you, you're just gone.

Yeah, it's really weird.

So what do you got to say, Yianni, now that you're here?

Your office hours are crazy.

I don't know. I don't know. What are we talking about now?

Let her rip, whatever you want.

and

Talk about whatever you want.

And there was something I was going to follow up with what Monica was saying.

Well, I do know that like AI has gotten you really excited and and that

Did I freeze?

Oh, he froze again.

Oh my, hilarious.

Oh, OK. All right. I'm just going to keep i'm just and keep rolling and assume you can hear, even if you OK.

Keep going. AI, I heard you.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think that part, like where you know Monica was talking about when you don't innovate and you stay stagnant, you know I think you just become irrelevant. If you stay in that path too long, like things are changing fast. So for us, like AI um has been exciting. I know it's kind of a controversial, like there's you know people on both sides on whether or not, do you know it's... ethical to use. But for us, it's really just like a creative tool. It's like rarely something that we're just like, design this, and I'm gonna just put it out there without any input.

Uh-huh.

So it's really just like another creative partner for us to just explore and try and, you know, see what we can get. And with AI video, video to video, I don't know, it's just it's like so much there. And it's a lot of fun right now for me, personally,

and I know. I curse the day that you told me about Luma.

I, it is, and the, the way they set it up though, with the credits, like you, you purchase your pack of credit and I'm like, I'm blowing through them so quickly.

Uh-huh.

I'm telling Monica, there it goes.

He's like, I got to update our accountant, guys. I'm like, Jesus.

Up it. Up it. Like, there it goes.

like It's like a slot machine, yeah.

It's like every month.

One more spin, one more spin.

Yeah.

But don't you but don't you think, though, like it's such a compounder right like for a little bit of effort or for one little credit.

But yeah.

You don't just get like 90% nothing, 10%, maybe it's pretty cool. Like it's always going to be something interesting. It's always going to be something really well rendered or thought out or interesting. So whether it works or not, like the compounding value of learning to use these tools and the efficiency that they can provide, whether it's as a brainstorm, companion or an efficiency tool or some, you know, helping you spell check or proof your writing, um making sure that your perspective or your tone is right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like Tim, to me, it's just a great creative brainstorm partner.

hundred percent And the fact, you know, for us, there's just two of us, right? DEEO is just two. And the fact that we can utilize AI for all the things you said, like proofreading, meeting notes, like takeaways, not, you know, not even just design stuff, just, yeah, like ah follow up on this meeting and what are, what are your takeaways, summarize this, like all of that stuff helps us work faster and more efficiently, like we are a 10 plus person agent.

Yeah.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

I mean that's what it feels like for us.

Mm hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it's just been it's been so fun working together with you all just knowing that we were definitely early adopters of of new technology and of AI. um And finding you know ways to collaborate and explore and. um Yeah, like brainstorm and it's it's all it lends itself to all of that.

Uh huh.

yeah

So it's been a lot of fun just having such a ah fun new like sandpit to play in basically.

Uh huh.

Yeah. And that's the way it should be.

Uh huh.

Right. I mean, that's, that's what we, that's what we wanted.

Yeah.

Um, this shouldn't feel like the day to day, like, Oh, I gotta to get up and do my web project. Like for us, it's just exciting every day.

Yeah.

And when we get to collaborate and work on projects like this, where we're all on the same page, um, it's a lot of fun. It's like, yeah.

It is. It is a lot of fun. I mean, it doesn't mean that there's not like hard times, like Monica's hard time earlier.

It was totally fine. Forget it. It never happened.

Well, I read somewhere that, you know, if you're, it's never a fair fight if you're beating yourself up.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Um, and I know we have all, we all have very high standards for ourselves.

Yeah.

So we we do set ourselves up to be a pretty bad, a pretty tough opponent to ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I think that. nothing meaningful ever came out of like easy, predictable, no problems. Whoever said, like I had the most boring, routine, monotonous, exactly what I expected, kind of weak, and I have had a revelation. like and that And I conquered, it I mean, it just doesn't work that way.

Right.

Yeah, no.

I mean, we all need rest. We all need to recharge. We all need variety. um But though I think the way you sink your teeth into a challenge or identify the kind of challenges you want to sink your teeth into, like then you got to sink your teeth in you know and not and not try to fit that into your predictable little process because that's that's not going to go good.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like our thing is like, if we're comfortable, like our motto for the like day one was if we're comfortable, we're doing it wrong.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

That was one of the early things we figured out.

Yeah, we have like a tagline list.

Yeah.

I like that.

ha heat up baloney will probably be added to that tagline.

Actually, I'm going to put that on the list.

Get some merch around that.

Was it microwave baloney?

You know, I haven't really thought about baloney in a long time, let alone.

and That was such a random pool.

You're welcome.

This is our viral moment.

She talks about microwaving baloney.

Yeah, none of the design stuff.

Crazy.

but

ah Yeah. now so and Well, I would also say like to be in a creative collaboration, you've got to feel comfortable letting it rip.

Yeah.

and i mean how any times Yeah.

Oh, yeah. You had to be vulnerable.

How many times have you said and heard me say, OK, I have no idea where this is going. This is literally just coming out of my brain as it's coming out of my mouth with no guarantees.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah Yeah Yeah i've been doing that too lately with just my own design process and starting just like

And yeah, you've got to get it out there. Sometimes it's to get it out of the way.

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes there's some good stuff in there, but it is like, it is like exercise, right? Like your second set sometimes is going to be the good one because your muscles are like, okay, now we know what that's going to feel like.

yeah I see what we're doing here. Yeah.

And yeah.

just know like there might be things I know can't be done but just put it out like just get it out there do it just design it don't have any rules or any like uh how would you do that how's that going to pass accessibility like just get it all out there and then after that you can go deeper special guests here we go it's live

yeah

like cast come say hi ah guys' cast Yeah, there's like a million people watching right now Hey fans I Just had a quick question for Tracey, but now I know the answer I was gonna ask if you sorry eating for the first time they are interested in going to the store with me I am um where now Well, I'm we're about to wrap up

Hi.

Hi, Mom.

Okay, I'll feed Frankie.

Wrap it up.

Okay. Bye, guys.

See ya.

by That's hilarious.

Pretty great ending.

right Oh, Frank.

I gotta go to get in the store. Thanks, guys.

Yeah, gotta go to the store. Gotta make some dinner.

Well, as do I.

Yeah, same.

And it's not gonna be bologna, by the way.

I hope not.

Sure.

Good Lord, I do not actually eat bologna. My mother did feed it to me. I still love her, but bologna was a thing of the 70s.

Yeah.

Anyway,

this This has to be like the title of this podcast.

Microwave balloon.

Well, I mean, with all of the comings and goings of Yianni.

Am I out?

Yeah, I mean, it's I feel like maybe we were being haunted a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah, today is just, I'm sorry, today is just like a messed up. Like it was crazy.

Am I in?

Sometimes, yeah, you're still here.

Can you hear me? I thought I'm here.

Wait, where's Yianni?

Oh, there he goes.

I'm just kidding.

I'm kidding.

Guys, I'm right here.

ah

That was good. Oh my God.

All right. Well, let's um let's go wrap it up. And guess what? Tomorrow is a fresh start.

Uh-huh, cannot wait.

Love it.

That's the other thing. you got Yeah. Let's have patience. Let's start again tomorrow and go for great. Make it better.

Oh my god.

Love it. Let it rip.

It's a new day.

Let her rip. Skip the baloney.

Oh, fuck yeah. Hello, boy.

All right, thank you guys. um This was always so much fun talking to you and love hearing about your journey.

yeah

Thanks, Brizzy.

Super proud of you for starting DEEO and just love every opportunity we get to work together.

Thanks.

Yeah.

Same.

um Burning question really is if you hire someone down the road, will you change the name to Trio? but We'll leave that for the next podcast.

Yeah, that's a good follow.

Until then, thank you guys so much.

Thanks, Tracey.

1936.

Talk soon.

I'm going to stop the recording, but please do stay on.

OK.

Okay.