Brain Tumors, Bigness, and Believing in Everything with Jen Dary

Welcome everyone. Another episode of escape velocity. Thanks for joining me. i'm your host, Tracey Halvorsen and gosh, I'm so excited. we are talking i am talking, we are all talking with Jen Dary today. um just a little bit about Jen. met Jen in 2012 when all sorts of change was the, in the in the Crock-Pot, I guess, just starting to brew. She had ah an idea for, um ah business that she wanted to start. She was still working in an agency in New York. Um, she had a baby just starting in the oven, tiny, tiny.

Mm-hmm.

Um, we met at this, at the very first sort of, uh, test run of what ended up becoming owner camp and the Bureau of digital and all these things. And, um, And when Jen did then start her business, Plucky, we my old company was her first client and we worked together and have known each other. And let's let's dive in. Jen, thanks for joining.

Oh my gosh. I mean, i i just said this before we started recording, but there's like 300 copies of my book over there in boxes. And that feels like a dream. And also you just backed up to 2012 and I'm like in this room with mostly men and you and a couple other women, and you told me, by the way, You're going to have a baby later this year. Also, in two years, you're going to start your own business. And also, I mean, also a lot of other things, like going have tumor. But if you just fast forward creatively and say, and then in 13 years, you shall sit with Tracey on her podcast and discuss the book coming out, I would be like, what bingo card are you playing, man?

Yeah, right? Crazy. If we could go back in time, mean would you even want to know what was coming?

don't think so. i mean... You know, it's easy to say because I'm now alive and healthy and that is good. But um I mean, you know, we've talked about this a lot, but sometimes you just feel like just hang on for the ride, you know, and that's all you can do.

you can do.

And when there's opportunities, say yes when it makes sense. And um I don't know. i I feel like my life is a big result of that so far.

that's one of my mottos. um Say yes to the universe. you know if it's at all possible, like don't don't hide from your life.

Yes.

um

Yes. Yes.

It won't let you in most cases, but you'll sure miss out on a lot of the great stuff if you don't just embrace it and say yes. um but let's do let's get let's Let's lay the groundwork here for for our friends who are listening. so Jen was going through life business was good. Life was good. Kids were good. Um, and then whammo, uh, you were, you found out you had big ass motherfucking brain tumor.

Good. I should have asked if we can curse in this place. Yes.

We can absolutely person this.

Great. Thank you for modeling that for me.

Yeah. I do market. I do mark the podcast as, you know, not really geared for children.

Good.

Um, but yeah, uh, I will,

Perfect.

talk about but's let's just let's just talk about that.

Yeah. Yeah, so I had my second son in 2015. And, um you know, after you have a baby, like you just don't, you feel weird anyway, you know, I was like nursing him, you're not sleeping, there's like all kinds of things that like it doesn't nobody is really thinking bigger problems when you start having headaches and stuff like that because because you have a baby and you know everyone's like yeah time is weird you know like keep going and just stay alive and keep the baby alive and so that but the these symptoms just um i wouldn't even call them symptoms i just would be like god i'm uh i'm having headaches and i would go to the gp and she would be like well you know, you just had a baby and you're stressed and you have like ah a young business.

Yeah.

And, um, and that was really, you know, like i I couldn't even probably say to you, this is what my symptoms are. Again, I didn't even think about it. i just felt like, oh, I don't feel good like that. And, um, you know, I kept going back and they kept saying the same thing. And then, you know, at some point I was like, you know what, I need to like blow this popsicle stand and embrace weird shit. So I was like, i'm going to do acupuncture. That's not even weird at all on the grand scheme of things, but I was like, going do acupuncture. and you know, that didn't really help. And eventually I get referred and referred and referred. And eventually I'm in like a neurologist office. And he said, yeah, you're fine. You know, you can take Advil every day, which, okay. And he was like, but just in case, let's do an MRI. and MRI is like a a big picture of your um yeah of the inside of your body, right? And...

And this was give us the date.

says Yeah, this was April 2016. I had the MRI. And um again, it was like, i have headaches. I don't feel great. And my baby's eight months old. And then he called me like 10 minutes after I got home, the neurologist, and he said, you have a big brain tumor and we have to take it out right away. And we can't believe you're still functioning. And I was like, what like what what are you talking about? You know, and, um you know, thus kicks off a huge crisis adventure, um, you know, scary time, but turns out to be extremely life-changing. And that is what I wrote my book about.

You know, when you, you built Plucky to help other people, you know, and so Plucky is, describe Plucky.

Yeah. Well, you know, you need to say words for SEO, right? So like ah Plucky is a leadership coaching and consulting firm based outside D.C. Now I live in Arlington, Virginia, and I am i would say most of the time I spend one on one coaching. So it tends to be with people in leadership roles or folks emerging into that. But i also teach a manager training called So Now You're a Manager several times a year. i have some products over here for managers. And mostly I i would say that I spend almost every day with people who are going to work and feeling stressed about it.

Mm-hmm.

And that can be from a variety of angles. It can be, I'm a boss and I'm stressed and I need to like give feedback to someone or I have a boss and they're stressing me out and I need to leave or maybe I'm about to be fired or you know, all that kind of stuff. and um And, you know, some people go to therapists, which of course is wonderful. um And coaching, I have found, at least my style of it, is really great when you need to not catch the therapist up on all the business jargon. you know When you're like, hang on, let me explain how engineering and design works together.

Yeah.

Or like let me explain IPO or like whatever. you know So some people will be like, I i want to talk about like what's going on. I need some strategies for how to move forward. um But I need somebody who knows the business. And so Plucky is how I do it.

So how, how did things change when suddenly you were the one that needed to be brave. You were the one that was like, I, you know, I mean, what did that, what was that shift?

Yeah.

Like, I mean, in the, I'm i'm sure in the moment it wasn't like, Oh, shift gears.

Right.

Um, but

Yeah, it was very uncomfortable. i really don't like it i

yeah

i am the helper. ah i'm the first of three kids in my family. i am the president of the PTA. You know, like I do those kinds of things in life. And this was like, not only like the vice president, this was like the like literal patient in the hospital

Yeah.

And I just had to receive. i had to receive and not give for a ah number of weeks and months. And that was really uncomfortable. But oh my gosh, like so, I mean, i wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't had to do that.

So, you know, again, ah Jen has written this book. It is coming out. um When is it getting January 13th is called I Believe in Everything.

January january thirteenth

This book was born from a series of experiences you had going through crazy time. very crazy time um And, you know, you've, you've, I don't even really know how, how to like dive in because it's been this journey, but really what has, you know, what you've described, the book's fantastic. I mean, i just want to start there. Like I, I, I started it, couldn't stop.

Thank you.

Um, and just felt like i was there inside ah your, your brain, your mind, minus tumor. Um, although I love that, you know, I felt like the tumor was a, was a major character. um but more what the, what the tumor and that experience cracked open for you. and you know, it had a lot to do with your brain and a tumor and, you know, you're having brain surgery and all of this, but, um, it is like your brain cracked open and what you share in the book is,

yeah.

so much of the struggle around identity when you, especially when you shift from being the helper, the doer, the, the one who's teaching other people how to be brave and how to move forward, um, to suddenly you needing all that help and, and what that did to your identity. Um, and you, you just so beautifully and heartwarmingly and honestly share those moments where it just got brought into such clear view. I mean, I will say, you know, I went from crying on one page to laughing hysterically to kind of snickering, you know, three pages later. um And just your humor shining through throughout. but when you stood when you looked in the mirror and thought like, is this real? Can this really be happening?

Yeah.

What was that like?

Well, you know This is kind of a fast forward, and you know you and I talked about this a couple weeks ago, but just a couple weeks ago, I had a similar moment. Luckily, it's okay now, but I had some test results come back, and and the results said like there's a new little thing in your head, and it might have grown. and I was sitting in the armchair in our living room, And, you know, like your body just sort of ices up. There's like complete numbness for a second. And I just was in that chair thinking, The only other person that knows this right now is the radiologist who read the report. So I was like trying to figure out when to call Chris in the room or when to tell him. Right. One of my kids was at school already.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

One of the kids was across from me on the couch. And i just it was like this pocket of time. And it's very reminiscent of what happened, you know, when this diagnosis comes through. It's like if I don't say anything, it's not real. And. and And it's, I don't even know, maybe you've had these moments too where, I don't know, you're just out of time almost. It's like you're you're in a, I don't even want to say bubble. You're just like, you're just not existing on this plane for a quick second. And I had to measure out when when do I want to call Chris over? Well, it wasn't even going to be call over. I was going to come down to my office and tell him to come down because my son was upstairs still.

Yeah.

And that's how it was that day. I mean, that day, honestly, it was so shocking that um I don't think I had that out of time moment, maybe a a minute, but it was more like echoes of that for a while. Like you said, looking in the mirror or, you know, we're driving through the streets of Berkeley. We lived in California at the time and all a sudden like, wait, oh my God, that's going on. You know, just like that sort of big memory of it. I'm so glad that the book, conveyed that state to you. Because I think as I was writing it, one of the one of the trickier parts was how do I represent my thought processes Which today, as I was writing it, ah my brain is fully functional. How do I represent that in the text? Like, do i use like slow words? know what I mean? Like my, how do how do I like mimic that experience in text? Because the coherence with which I'm writing present day is way more. better than it was then. i was like slow and it was hard. And you know you get a snippet of that every once in a while. like There's a scene where I finally decide to play with the baby And there's a scene where I'm, you know, I'm playing and it's exciting for me because I haven't been able to play with him yet. And then at the end of the scene, I go, i go back to bed and I say, oh my gosh, what a victory. I played with him for 11 minutes. And then I need a two hour nap. And those are the moments that I feel like I needed to figure out how to expose to you.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, no brah. It was not just like. Oh, I can't hold the baby, but I'll just hang out with the baby. Like I couldn't watch, I think we got through like a like nine minutes of a Seinfeld episode. And if you've never had brain surgery, you don't know how complicated Seinfeld is. I love it. It was was like the big salad episode. And there are, in Seinfeld, there are like four different storylines all coming together There are echoes and like funny jokes, you know, like inside jokes across all of them. And it was so overwhelming. I i could we had to turn it off at nine minutes because it was like, oh, my gosh. And so anyway, as in terms of the making of this book and the art of it, I it it was a struggle not to make myself sound like totally incapacitated, but also not sound totally normal because I think I wanted the reader to understand shit was not normal.

Yeah, no, I think you did. I mean, I got this feeling of like just the world, you know, like everything. It's almost like you were inside all of a sudden this cocoon leading up to the surgery and then.

yeah

you know, going through the recovery in the hospital and then coming home. And it was so visceral when you talked about how scared you were to start to like expose yourself to more after going through this.

yeah

And all of a sudden, you know, your children, it's like, I'm, I, I'm scared. Like what if one of them launches themselves at me or, you know, or I need to be able to react quickly to something you there's just so much going on as there is with two little boys and, you know, one that's still a baby basically.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, um, you know, you, you, and you had to, you know, physically and emotionally go into this very cocooned, like going through this, this journey, um, experience and, I think you really did a good job of capturing that.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, just like the dark, you know, the, the need to sleep and rest. And, um and one of the things I was wondering, you know, what it was very powerful reading about you and Chris talking about, you know, like, I mean, going into the surgery, like there was not a guarantee you were going to come out of it and come out of it at all, survive it.

Right. What happens if, yeah. Yeah.

let alone who who were you going to be? What kind of state were you going to be in? All of those things were ah like, nobody really knew.

Yeah.

i mean, um, and when you were facing your life through those realities and having those conversations with Chris about, Hey, I, I want you to be able to like find love again. And thinking about like somebody else might be a mom to these kids and writing the notes.

Yeah. Yeah.

to the kids.

Yeah.

What I mean.

That's when everybody cries. Like my copy editor was like, well, I held it together until the notes for the kids.

Yeah. yeah Yeah.

And yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, again there Maybe I'll c say it like this. So the guy, Matt Roser, who um who designed the cover of the book, who I will show.

which is beautiful by the way.

I know it's so beautiful.

Yeah. Show anyone who's watching on YouTube or elsewhere.

So yes, if you're watching, you can see it.

It's

If not, you can just look it up. I believe in everything. um But he designed the cover and...

beautiful.

um I had hired him, and but we hadn't met yet on Zoom. And he said, well, send me the book. I want to read it, you know, and then we can talk about your aesthetic and everything. And um the first time we met, he said, well, I was reading this on a train and it was a problem because hes he was tearing up a lot. And he said that his cousin had died of a brain tumor, young mom died of a brain tumor like a couple years earlier. And he said, the thing is, when you see someone going through a health crisis on social media, there is a lot of like... BRB crushing it, right? Or like, you're a warrior. like ah or Or again, in first person even, like, I'm going to get this. Like, I'll be okay.

Right.

you know um We have things like CaringBridge now where we it's almost you know basically like a blog where people can update on their health things. And there's just so much positivity. And also in the comment section, of course. And what he said is, i really appreciated knowing what she might have been going through. Because it's not all warrior stuff, right? Like, it the in those moments, I think the book allows me to sort of say like, mostly I thought I was going to be okay, but if I wasn't like it was going to be really not okay, like dead or vegetative or, you know, my tumor was near my auditory processing and memories.

Yeah.

So it could have taken my hearing. It could have, um, I don't know, you know, there's a lot of things that can happen. And, And so there were some very real moments, even if I tried not to think about them very much. I mean, like, you know, I don't know. You can't be in complete denial. i have two young children here. So, like, if I stay in denial and something happens, then I've completely voided myself from their lives. So... those Those were hard moments, but i i know i know even a a couple people right now going through meningiomas, which is the type type of tumor I had, who are not preparing in those ways. They're guys, by the way. And...

Yeah.

Oh, I just think um how can you regardless of what's going on? How can you be a gift to the people around you? Like, how can you make your wishes clear? I know it's uncomfortable. It's really fucking uncomfortable. But like, how can you say if this goes whatever sideways or, you know, however. i want you to I want the kids to have ah another parent, you know, like. Feel free to do that. And um I don't know. i There really was so much freedom for me. This is where the spiritual bend of the book comes, right? Because I really felt... um almost like the most awake that I have ever been during this experience too, which maybe makes sense. Like if you're on death's door, everything gets really fucking crystal clear. You know, here's what's important.

Yeah.

Here's what's not. Here's what texts I don't need to write back to like, you know, et cetera. And so in a way, those conversations were kind of the only ones we could have. It wasn't like, eh, which way for takeout? was like, if I die, this is what you should do. Like, yeah. no chit chat man it's like really really stark

Um, I guess along those lines, You know, I'm sure on a lot of levels, if you could go back in time and no no brain tumor, you would absolutely choose that.

well

Is there, are there things that, that you would not happily give back?

you know i think about this a lot actually um I probably wouldn't pick the brain tumor again. um But you know, it's always, it's always easy to pick something hard when it goes well, right? Like, oh sure, that was hard for me, but you know, I'd do it again. I don't know. It was really disruptive and it it more than anything, it turned out to be sort of like, now I have a book about it, but like, this is the Jen story. This is, I literally two days ago got a text from someone who said, Hey, my aunt, has a meningioma. Was that your thing? So like, I'm going to talk to her next week. Like it becomes the reason people contact me in some ways.

Yeah.

Right. And like that, while of course I really um feel very privileged that people can feel like they can be intimate like that and text me those things. It also is, It's quite a theme to have all the time. That said, um you know, it's like we're recording this. It's going to be Christmas soon. I'm so busy. I'm so burned out. And there are many times when I i really crave and and miss the the most quiet time of my life, which was basically... right before and then definitely after brain surgery. When I was in our bedroom, everybody was keeping the kids away. Everybody was doing all the stuff. I had no email, no nothing. Couldn't even really look on social media because I couldn't read anything. um I really think that the the spiritual stuff that I talk about in the book, this connection to the universe, which I i use the word bigness, that connection can only, i think, happen when

Oh yeah. um

on some level when everything else gets its lights turned out. So I feel so far from bigness, especially lately, but Because I'm like thinking about sending my kid on his, you know, outdoor lab project tomorrow. And do we have those hot pocket things for him? You know, like i don't have the brain space to connect with the universe right now. in And that was a really big gift for like a couple of weeks to be completely free of all responsibilities and And who was I hanging out with? Well, it was kind of God. I don't know what else to call, you know, not religious, but let's do it.

let's yeah let's talk about the bigness um let's let's dive into that you know when we were after i'd read the book um and some of the experiences you had with how people have reacted the know and and how people are going to react to some of the things you're sharing in this book um you know, the bigness and this experience you had with, you call it the bigness, God, the universe, whatever um was, was, is the, the book um in, in a lot, you know, it's like a story about the, you know, I'm believing in everything and kind of finding that and, and sensing that connection to the bigness and the universe and God.

yeah

And the the brain tumor journey was just kind of like the vehicle.

yes

um But now that this book's coming out and you're that vulnerability of sharing these experiences ah is upon you. And yeah, I mean, just talk about that, that, that start let's start there.

Yeah. Well, I write in the book... I was a little grumpy when this started to reveal itself because I was like, come on, man. Like, I don't live in a swing state. At that point, I was in California. I'm in tech. Everybody's an atheist, basically. Like, I'm already like the soft skills bullshit workshop of the tech industry. Okay, people like, oh, okay. care and manager training you know they're like either she's gonna do trust falls or we're gonna find out how not to sexually harass people but like there's nothing it's it's whatever it's like it's not hardcore engineering and so I was like oh come on man like I i thought it was gonna be like book near death motherhood oh and now I'm like dam it Like, is it really going also be spiritual? Because what a repertoire, you know? um I feel... Well, I feel... Ultimately, I do not feel nervous because ultimately this is my trust fall into whatever the hell else happens. And I didn't assign this book to myself.

Yeah. Yeah.

I really feel that it was assigned to me. So here you go, brah. Did my homework, you know? um but Something really interesting. my So my my family has not read it yet. I'm about to actually put it in the mail to them. I have a brother, a sister, my parents. um And my brother lives locally to us. And a couple months ago, I guess I was showing him the cover of something. And the subtitle of the book is A Memoir of Illness, Motherhood, and Magic. And he was like, why magic? And I was like, rut row. Have I not told anybody? mean, really feel like I did, Tracey. Like, I really feel like in those moments, there's like a dream I had that I know I talk to people. Certainly my husband knows, but I was like... huh, what do you guys think this book is about? And i think that's going to be interesting um and scary. I don't know how you feel about being an artist who sometimes might have like your family implicated in things. Like my sister was like, why can't we read it yet? And I was like, listen, it's not a family tell-all. This is not like a Kardashian level, like nothing. You're in the book, but it's not about the family, you know? So I don't know.

Yeah.

i feel Like this, this is like when you put your book on in all the like, you know, here's my ISBN number and all that. You have to pick categories for the book, right?

Right.

So i was like, huh, okay. And so it's in health and it's in spirituality, but then, you know, you do 10 dropdowns. I was like, well, it's not like Catholic and it's not religious even. It's like some other stuff. yeah. It's going to be interesting. I'm curious to see how it changes my pipeline, honestly. Like if if folks read the book, find out about me and are drawn to maybe get coaching, are they showing up, I don't know, with a different tone or way of being?

Well, I think a lot of people like to it put aside um the notion of magic or spirituality or um the bigness or God, whether they're religious or not.

Yeah.

It's like, I'm going through my day. i live in a material you know world. Materialism in science is something that we all have have elevated to God level anyway. But I loved in the book how you talked about, you know, ever since you have that you can remember, you've been like, oh, tell me. I mean, I remember telling you what my one of my ghost stories when we were together years ago and you were like, what?

Yes.

Tell me more. You know, just being fascinated by that and and wanting to understand it and sort of like, that you know, dissect it and and make sense out of it.

Yes.

which I think is what we all want to do, right? We want to understand and and have things that don't make sense, make sense.

Me too.

And when, and then you get, you know, finally you have this gigantic brain tumor and nothing makes sense about that, you know, and nothing makes sense about a lot of life, but we like to pretend like it does.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

And so I think for me anyway, I think that we all are curious and want to know, and it bothers us that we can't really ever know, um until, you know, whatever comes next, or we get these, these moments where things crack open for a second and you, you see it and you feel it and you know it, but then, you know, yeah, we go back to regular life and yeah, I think it's hard to,

Google calendar. Yeah.

be in that state constantly.

Yeah.

um Unless you're, you know, like Buddha, or I don't know, you know, like a deity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is why I love hospitals because in hospitals, it's always serious. I mean, I guess not always, but like, you know, that's the place where like The people who are floating in and out of death, that's where they're all hanging out. So it's like every time I walk in a hospital, it just feels so like liminal, you know, like we're right there. Like if there's the doorway to anything, it's. There's definitely spots in the hospital that that, you know, where people are passing away. And i know hospitals are really scary for some people.

yeah yeah

I am not scared of dying. i am not, you know, after all this, especially, it's not like I'm like, oh, wow, heaven. Can't wait for all the angels to die. you know, smother me in kisses. Like that is not what I think is, I don't know what's going happen, but I'm not scared of dying. And it also makes me not scared of hospitals. It makes me curious about hospitals. And all I want to do is like sit down. This will be my second book. Just interviews with hospital staff about the weird shit that happens where they're like, oh, so-and-so saw their old dog down the hall on their way out. Like what are you talking about? Like dead people seem, you know, arriving in places like, man i mean it's just you mentioned materialism and like whatever i'm totally in for science math vaccines the whole nine but like i don't know this must just maybe be my role in life but like every once in a while i'll be and i think i mentioned this to you i'll be with very legitimate people like business owners legitimate people you get two drinks from them and they're like you know what one time my dead grandmother came to me and told me to name my business this And I'm like, why is this not the topic of all presentations at conferences? Like everybody has a thing. It's crazy, but nobody wants to talk about it. So I'm glad that on some level, this book can be a permission slip for people. but Like hopefully I don't come across as like a woo-woo psycho, right? And hopefully I'm like, listen, I am a very logical, mathematical, business-minded person who also has a whole bunch of belief now in things I can't see.

Yeah. So, um talk about that. that fear going away when you have these experiences you know you just said you're not afraid of death talk about that what what what is that because i think so many people are so terrified and but when you have an experience like this or experiences like this and you know that there's so much more so much um

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah

where where did Where did that kind of come from, that that release of that fear? Because it's not like you were given a tour the aftermath or anything.

Right.

You know, like, here's your room.

Right. Which I would have welcomed. Like I totally, I loved those Oprah shows where she interviewed all those people who like went into wormholes and shit. Um, I think like when I think about my death, honestly, the impact of the people around me is what is most stressful and sad for me.

Yeah.

So my children, my husband, you know, my community, um you know, hopefully that doesn't happen for a super long time and I'll be like, you know, 90 and in shape and nobody's worried about me. But like I, my, I just, you know, I'm really curious to see what happens. And i think that curiosity overtakes the fear that it's like, I mean, everyone's going there, you know?

Yeah.

so and I don't know. Did you ever watch The Good Place, that show?

Yeah.

Oh, I mean... like love it in the beginning. Then there's a couple seasons where I'm like, ah okay, fast forward. Like this is little going off rails here. But then at the very end, I i really want to watch it one day, but I know I'll need probably like a priest, a therapist to help me through it because those last few episodes, i don't know if you remember them, but you know, I won't spoil it for everybody for a series that's been out for like 20 years now, but like, you know, there's, there's an ending. Like even for them in the afterlife, there is an ending and they don't know what happens after that ending. It's still question mark, question mark. So I, I think all of those things are playful and interesting to me. i um, I was not scared in my like heart of hearts going into brain surgery. It was my logic, logical mind that was scared. It was like, um,

Yeah.

whoa, what the fuck is about to happen? You know, like you, they wheel you in and then this guy is like preparing saws, literally. And I'm like, oh my God, wait, I have not asked enough questions here, you know? But you're like on the gurney and they're putting the oxygen mask on and you're like, oh my God, I took no notes during those calls, you know, like, so, so all that to say that I felt extremely protected, loved, um, You know, really, really spiritual, really like, um I don't know, bubbled in in in in love. And, you know, i have I haven't really talked about this with anyone, but I have this. So I think I said like, right, the book felt like a handshake with the universe. Universe is like, you're going to live. You got to make something beautiful out of it. Cool. No problem. Gives me this idea. i have to write a book. It's called I Believe in Everything. Okay, fine. it Takes me nine years. Now now we're good. And ive I've been thinking about this on and off a little bit of like, well, what happens when the reason you lived is now complete? Like when we sit down and we talk about life goals or on your deathbed or whatever, like, like I i really think for me, putting myself in this object is my way of, um, I don't know, how would you even say it? Like overcoming death, right? Like I want my great grandkids to be like, wow, we kind of know Nana because it's great Nana because she's we like laugh with her in the book or, you know.

Yeah.

So what happens when you have somehow become a little immortal and you've put yourself on paper I'm not sure. And there's part of me that's like, oh, God, after like on January 14th, which is actually my birthday, but the day after the book releases, am I going to get hit by bus? Do you know what i mean? Like there's a little bit of paranoia there for me because I'm not sure what the runway looks like after that. After you've completed, i don't want to say your life's work, right? Like I'm totally down for extra credit, but this, this is a weird marker for me.

Yeah. Well, you have other assignments, so you were given other, other things you needed to do, which is good.

Yes, fair.

So this is, if it was just the book, I'd be nervous too. Um, so you've got other stuff you got to work on, um, which I loved how you kept being like, okay, you know, got to, you know, start an Institute and buy land and, and all these things.

Right. Right.

Um, Because now do you feel like you really have to like go down the checklist and be like, okay, I've got to do all the things because the book was one of them.

Well, that's so funny. Richard Banfield, who we are friends with, and I know he's just been on your show, but he read the book. He loved it. And then he texted me and said, all right, how are we starting Plucky Institute?

Yeah.

And I was like, Banfield, like, it's like a Tuesday. I'm like winding down some email. yeah know And I was and but that's classic Richard. And so like. you know he text Then I said, I don't know man. like Give me a minute. And then he texted me a couple days later and i was like, okay, but for real, when are we going to have a long brunch and discuss Plucky Institute? And I said, here's the truth. i was like, I'm going on book tour next year. and I was like, it's not at the top of my dream list and it might not be there anymore. There's this great scene in the book, which is weird to say because it was a great scene in my actual life too, but where I'm i'm literally having that sort of like almost like conversation in prayer with this bigness where I'm like, all right, bro, like what is the plan? You're giving me the book. You're giving me this Plucky Institute idea. What's going first?

Yeah.

And um I'm sitting under this tree where there's just like acorns everywhere. And that sort of like direction I get is like, hey, man, you do you. There's acorns everywhere, you know? So I feel like Plucky Institute is not necessarily, ah i think it's a suggestion. I think it was super powerful, meaningful. It got me through a moment right before surgery where i was like, what the heck? This is all opening up. Um, but I think if that never comes to be, it would not be a failing. And I also think if it's going to come to be, it's going to fucking come out of nowhere. It'll be like your third cousin left you land in Idaho. It'll be like, what? It's like, it's a shape of an octagon. And, you know, there's a labyrinth built in. It'll be like, oh my God. Like, that's how I feel like it's going happen. It's not going to be like an investor lunch, you know?

Right. No, and I think that's that's the way life works, right?

Yeah, I hope so.

And certainly the way that it's it's borne out um for you. But also, yeah i this journey of writing the book, um you know, you hit this point where you you had the book, it was written, and you were having to go through that process of getting it published.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, what I love about this is, you know, and you mentioned Richard, so he can play a starring role in just being like, you're Jen Dary.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, what are you waiting for? and And with the title, I Believe in Everything, and that made me think about the story you told about, I think it was a college boyfriend who just had this, like, belief in you that you, you know, he made you feel like

Yeah.

he saw in you more than even you saw in yourself. And that, that, that, that kind of belief from others um can sometimes be the spark you need to do the thing that oftentimes we wait for ourselves to be given permission or to follow the right paths or, you know, ah not now, or i can't, or i you know, I need to fuck to do it the right way.

yeah.

And it's, I just really love that. and And this has been part of you since I've met you, you know, like I have a ah dream to do something. I feel called to do something. I want to do something. going to fucking do it.

yeah.

And, you know, I just love the way that this book has come to be um because you were just reminded that you're Jen Dary and that you believe in everything.

I know it's so annoying. It's so annoying because even when I feel um unsure of something, I'm like, dang it. This is not who I am. You know, like I am the person's like, let's go. um the The story you're telling about Richard is that so a year ago, literally, I got an agent to write a business book and I was working hard on, you know, writing a pitch for a business book for managers. And it was exciting because I had an agent and because I had been looking for an agent for, I believe in everything for three years and nobody was picking up that phone. And, you know, you, You're just, you know how there are like some challenges where you're like am I not trying hard enough? Or like, am I not using the right words?

Right.

Or should I take another writing class? Or should I pay to go to a conference where I can meet agents? It's just like, I can't, I could figure out I could see it wasn't happening, but I couldn't tell what the X factor was that was wrong. It was like, hmm, I don't, and then people would be like, oh, start a sub stack. And I was like, bro, that is, you know, I mean, you know how it it goes, right? So I was just like going round and round that horse, but I didn't have any better ideas for what to do. Then I get someone interested in me writing a business book. I get an agent. I'm like, okay, maybe that's supposed to happen first. And then if I get a little notoriety of my business world, then people will be like, do you have any spiritual memoirs on hand? Like, you know?

Yeah.

Maybe it would go that order. So I was like confused, but I was like, okay, all right. And it just wasn't really coming together. And then when I saw you and some other friends of ours in April, um You know, I was telling you all about that and I was also just like so mystified because I was sitting around all of you internet people and all of you and me ah obviously also, but everybody would be like, oh yeah, i like ah wrote a book last summer and I put it on Amazon, now it's out. Or like, oh, I wrote two books two years ago and then I wrote three books last year. And I'm like... what? Like, what are you guys talking about? And it was all self-published. And if I can just say, if you go towards like the the literary community and like the writing classes I've been in stuff, I mean, the first question when you say you're publishing is a book is like, oh, really? Who's your agent?

Yeah.

Oh, who published it? It's this really old school system. And like, I don't know, I don't want to throw that much shade. I guess that's what you learn when you do your MFA or whatever. But like, oh my gosh, is it limiting? And so to suddenly be with all of these people that it's just like, that should exist. I'll make an app for that. Like literally that's what all you guys do. So And anyway, on the last night we're at dinner and I'm telling Banfield about Richard about um this business book. And he said, well, is that the book tour you want to go on? Like probably you go on a book tour for like three years and sell the business books and do coaching and whatever management trainings. And I was like, u oh, was like, uh, I don't think so. That's what I do. Like I've been doing manager trainings. And then I was like, no, I want to go on the memoir book tour. And then he said, well, you're Jandari. What are you doing? like make Make it happen. And I was like, oh no. And then I was like, I'm i'm literally having a midlife crisis as I wait for my tacos to be delivered.

Right.

like It was just like at the table. and And the worst part was he was like, you're Jandari. And then he turns to like um two other women sitting with him. He's like, she's Jandari. And they were like, you are though. You are Jandari. And I was like, Oh, God. So I like took the train home the next day. and within a week, let go of the agent. And that was April. And now it's December and the book is here. And that is like, to your point, I think... As annoying as it is, this is the way it could happen. And just the fact that I pushed it across the finish line is like, whatever, that fucking definition of manifestation. Like, it came to my head. I wrote it down. And then I paid somebody to like, give me the paper with it on. It's like crazy. It's just so magic.

Yeah, it's a lot of magic. um And it's a lot of, ah I think, you know, you entrepreneurial spirit, um you know, the the bravery and the the coaching that you bring to your clients and the the way that you work with people.

Yeah.

a lot of it is like really listening, you know, listen to what's true and then follow that. Don't, you know, sure. Like don't question it, but don't wait, don't wait for someone else to come to show up and decide for you or for you to be allowed or for you to, you know, have the right agent or whatever.

yeah

It's the same. i mean, very similar in, in so many different fields. I'm sure a lot of people can relate. um

Is it like that for you in art?

But it's, Oh yeah. I mean, the art world is, it's, I made a decision a long time ago that I did not want to try to make my living as a fine artist because i saw how random the games you'd have to play to, to reach the sort of the highest pinnacles. And it had nothing to do with what I loved about painting or what I wanted to share with other people through my work.

Hmm.

um

Mm-hmm.

So, yeah, I didn't want those gatekeepers to to have a say in what I created or didn't and whether I, you know, and then sharing it. um Thank God for the internet, right? Because I can share my work a lot more widely in this day and age than I could have if this was 50 years ago. And I would have been stuck, you know, kind of having to follow those more traditional pathways. But there's also, you know, fear in that, like, oh, you know, you can i publish you, nothing's stopping you.

mm hmm. Oh yeah. yeah.

Um, but then it's like, oh, it's really all on me. Nobody, nobody else is stepping in and being like, yep, this is great. And we're going to put it out there and it's going a wild success. Like, you know, it's just, I think there's a lot scarier.

yeah. Yeah, and it's very Little Red Hen. It's like, who will help me, you know, edit the book? Oh, I guess that's on me. I got to find that person. Like, who will help me make a podcast? Oh, I guess I better email Tracey. You know, like, all of it.

Yeah.

There's a pub team. I have... Sheila, who helps me out with plucky stuff and she's a publicist, but there's no like, you know, big system behind it, which is really what makes it tough. And, you know, many self-published authors, I think the average is they sell like less than 20 books or something, less than 50 books. Like the average is very low. So the fact that I have 200 pre-orders is amazing. And I feel... In many ways, I feel like my life has been leading up to this book tour because actually it's just sort of a year of parties, you know, to like see people who are like, you lived!

yeah

And i can be like, what the hell is going on with your career lately? You know, just it's going to be like so delightful. I was, you know, when you're talking about like the internet and and the ability to kind of, I don't know, open your own storefront, quote unquote, um or just like display stuff.

Yeah.

i was I was literally just thinking about that this morning. Did you ever read back in like 2011, that column, Dear Sugar? Do you remember that on the rumpus?

I remember hearing, I don't think I read it, but I remember hearing about it.

Yeah. So there's this website, The Rumpus, and they used to have this Dear Sugar column. It was like an advice column. And for so long, nobody knew who Sugar was, like the right the responder. And then eventually, I remember it was like a big day and we all learned it was Cheryl Strayed who wrote that book Wild, right? Who is just a really wonderful writer, obviously.

Right.

and And someone shared this old Dear Sugar with me yesterday. And I was like, oh my God, Dear Sugar. Yeah. And I was thinking this morning about, you know, when you're doing the press stuff like I'm doing right now, you have to figure out like, what kind of bio am I sending to this bookstore to interest or to a podcast or whatever? And what do they want to see in that bio? And so if you look at other people, it's like, She was published in the Southern Review, the Paris Review, the New York Times Review Books. Like, okay. It's like, I don't have time to go write other stuff so that I could put that in my bio. Like, I have a lot of other stuff going on. And I was just like, God, I think the reason I'm not writing a lot of shorter form things is because there is such a mental barrier to be like, Well, what what would they be looking for? What's the word count? Would they want a thousand? Would I need to – how would I pitch it? would they be You know what i mean? Like all that shit is in my head. And so the any creativity I have for the next work I want to do is completely now cut off at the knees. And that I find as a complete result of trauma in the publishing industry. Having gone through this whole time, I um i feel really limited there.

Thank you.

And so just this morning, I was like, I wish it was the internet 2011 again. like And I was like, maybe I just need to get medium going again. Because I do have things to say. It's just the idea of finessing some essay for like a year and a half and then pitching it to like 5 million things and putting it through Submittable where you don't hear back for 12 months. Yeah. That's not writing. you know That's like something else.

No, no, that is something else.

I don't know what that is.

That is something. That's a slog is what it is.

That's a slog.

It's a soul crushing slog.

Yeah. And ironically, the internet used to be that playground, but now ah you know all those systems have now come in and been like, we now exist on the internet too.

Yeah.

And you're like, damn it. Where's the cool indie space again?

I, yeah, I mean, I think it, hopefully it's going to be reemerging because I think AI is driving us all off of

Yeah, yeah.

the typical platforms because we're so sick of seeing this, uh, generic crap, this fake make like once the thrill of being able to like create your crazy video of like crazy shit happening, um, or, you know, write an entire essay that you didn't write a word of, like once that thrill is over, it's like, Oh, i mean, it takes away all the magic.

Yeah. yeah yeah

right? The magic is what happens when you do, I think it's, I think it's Elizabeth Gilbert that talks about it but I don't think it's her that coined that, that described it. But like when a creative idea is, is coming at you or pops up or shows up, it doesn't stick around forever.

Yeah. Yes.

And it oftentimes, yeah, it was Elizabeth Gilbert because she said like, she had this idea and she was going to do this thing and then she didn't get to it.

Yeah.

And then like, later she wrote another yeah and patch it and she wrote the book that you know so it's like it runs through you and it i think a poet described like it's like an idea it's like a bear running charging down a mountain and you're in your little cabin and when it runs through the cabin and comes crashing in it you've got to grab it and write it down right then and there this is very true i think for painting as well

Ann Patchett. Yeah. Yes. yeah

Or it will run, it'll keep running down the mountain. Somebody else going to catch it. And, and you're going to you know, busy yourself doing the things you just need to do waiting for the next bear to run down.

But can you trick yourself into that state?

Um,

Like, what are what is the... do Do you find, is there any pattern to like, I need to be in this space or listening to this or or having this glass of wine or on a Saturday morning? Like, is there anything you do to kind of, don't know, echo that state to so that you find those ideas easier?

Yes. You know, and i I think what you talked about earlier with like being in that quiet space where every, all the other lights are turned way, way, way down, um, that you can't schedule that in like 15 minute increments. Like you can't put on your calendar, like, okay, on the hour, every time, 10 minutes to the next hour, i will stop and like, go be creative. Um, So for me, I try to, you know, i keep sketchbooks. I try to write down ideas when I have them, just sketch them or write about them. But then I know that when I'm in the studio, like who knows what's going to show up or who's going to show up?

Right.

Because a lot of it is getting yourself into that state where you can allow other things to kind of come through you. because you know, everyone talks about the flow state as being the state you get to where you don't even really you're not really aware of, of what's happening. You don't feel like you're consciously like making a decision. Like I'm going to get a little bit of that green yellow and put it right there. It's a lot more like you're just, um, dancing with the universe and all the things, all the magic, all the, the stuff that you can't really bring to the surface, you know, on demand, has room and time to to kind of come out. So I do think that it's having the blocks of time to, and and keeping yourself open, like having new experiences, allow allowing yourself to not be so rigid about it that you're like, oh, if I don't do this every day, it won't happen. um Being okay with periods of time where you're not productive or you're not feeling it, like not freaking out about that.

Yes.

And just trusting that the it's it's all there and percolating and just kind of trying to make time for those things to land when they're ready to land.

Yeah. And there's so much underneath this conversation. i remember... I mean, you know, I've been writing this book since, well, my my younger son is 10. Okay? So, like, literally since he's nine months old, which is when all this went down. So for his entire life, I've been trying to write my life's masterpiece. And... That has been interrupted a lot. This is why it took nine years is that there were some years where we didn't sleep literally for the, with that kid. And there are years that we had COVID. And then there were years that I had, It's almost like if you imagine, okay, I get like 20 creative chips every day. There are some seasons where Plucky was taking so many of them because I had these ideas and I was you know starting So Now Your Manager or creating products or all those kind of wacky things I've done with Plucky. ah if if i've If I'm using that in my Plucky work, I don't have hunger to do it outside of plucky work. I I'm in it. Also, it's just like, yeah, I'm just not able to do that. So, so I find that like when my work is really drawing that creativity for me, I'm not writing. And then equally when I was like hot and heavy into the writing plucky was just like, no, we're not getting a new deck of cards this year, bro.

Yeah.

Like this old Shopify keep, keep churning, you know, like there I had enough to smear in one or the other. yeah, i so I joked with a friend last year. I was like, well, she she was talking about, you know, joining a gym. And I said, well, I basically have two options. I can either be a really fit person who doesn't write or I can be a plump writer. Like that's so far where I have come to be. And i don't know. 2026 coming up. Maybe maybe it'll be a different year. But especially as a parent of young children, I'm I can't do it all. And yet there's also that whole Hamilton. Why do you write like you're running out of time? That has also for sure been part of it, which is like, I can't rush this, but at the same time, who knows what is coming with the next MRI, you know? And, and so all of that is just such a little rat's nest of just dynamic underneath all this creativity. Yeah.

Yeah, and it's it's crazy that you had that recent scan and scare like right after you had finished the book and like it was published.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

you know It was like the hard copies what showed up. like At the time, that was bizarre.

Yes. The next day.

Yeah.

Yeah. I just said to my coach yesterday, I was like, I feel, I think the word she uses is activated. Like my nervous system is activated, which basically means like, you know, when you're like, um, driving a manual car and you like jam it by accident in one gear. I'm like jammed right now and like activated. It's like one day, well, we have a bad diagnosis for you. Next day, like childhood dream shows up in your literally doorway. It's like, I just said, I was like, it's so much. I just, um, it's, it's the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And I just sort of want to be neutral for a little while to absorb some of this. But You know, she she had good advice about like she she was like, well, how do you find yourself like recalibrating? And I said, well, an echo back to this time was that I had nothing else plugged in. And so I was like, OK, in December, which is a nice winding down time anyway. I was like, I'm going to you know, have like no phone on the weekend this weekend. Just I need to stop some of those inputs out of respect for what's going on in my nervous system.

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it really is about just what, what can you throw overboard? Not permanently necessarily, but sometimes permanently.

Yeah.

um

Mm hmm.

But yeah, how can you turn down all of that other stuff so that you can really be present for whatever is going on or needs to go on and make room for it?

yeah

And we only have so much time and bandwidth. So you do have to kind of be, be radically, um, prioritizing, I guess, in where you let your attention and time go. And as it's your point, you know, I think parenting and being a mom is a big part of this book, um, as well, because, you know, it's a selfless act and you really have to sacrifice a lot. um And as ah as an artist, as a creative person, that's hard, right? Because, you know, it's you've you've also got this calling to to do these things, especially with the bigness, like literally telling you you had to do it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, is there a sense of relief for you right now going into this period of like, okay, it's going to be the book tour and I did it and it's written and, you know, like a little prank with the recent MRI, but thank goodness, uh, just kidding.

Definitely. sir Yeah.

Um,

Yeah, I – there's a lot of relief and there's also just like honestly pride. I'm like so proud of myself that I did it. Nobody – I don't have a boss. Nobody made me make time for this. um

Yeah.

That could have really easily been like, oh, what a cool idea, but I'm busy, you know. So I just – feel, yeah really proud of myself. It's hard to do that. And I i did it. um And I also have a really interesting, just like, you know, I was saying, i'm I'm not sure what my next season projects look like or anything. I have a lot of ideas for ah fiction and, you know, other types of writing. i feel like I'm, ah what is very natural to me is to use writing to process some of these hard things that are happening, right? Like even in parenting or or again with health stuff for sure. But it's kind of like writing about almost dying is it's very sexy in that everybody's going oh my God, you almost died, right? So like, I think that that if you see like, and now everyone and their mother has a memoir, it's like, there is something to that. I think it's great for people to process what happened to them, but I don't want to be the person that keeps pulling out the like, death narrative almost because I'm a stronger writer than that I guess is really what I want to say I don't only get readers because I have a scary story I also am a good writer even when it doesn't evoke like panic in your heart and i want to I want to try that I want to flex some of that stuff which a more intricate narrative or um

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, something where you're not, frankly, I'm just really tired of myself writing about myself. I'm like, okay, well, now we heard her story. Let's no more sequels, no more MRIs, you know, like, um and, and so yeah, I, I have an idea for novel, you know, stuff like that. And so hopefully, you know, that's next.

Well, I mean, I think any one who reads this book will be struck by you're you're not just a pretty good writer, you're great writer. The writing is is wonderful.

Thank you.

And, you know, so somebody might say, well, what does that mean, you know, to be a great writer? um How do you define great writing?

Oh my gosh. You should have given me this question a week ago. No, no. Um, Hmm. Well, sometimes there's like a sentence where you're like, oh my God, if I cannot find something to underline that sentence, I will die. Like underlineable sentences to me are important. And. Yeah.

Well, what is, why, why, what is What let's go deeper there. Like the urge to underline it.

Yeah.

What, what are you trying to hold onto in that sentence?

Well, I think it's like, it's like, me too. Or like, oh my God, I never want to forget this. It's, you know, how there's like the joke these days where somebody will have a short quip or something and somebody will say, well, that's the t-shirt. right? Like, oh, that's the thing.

Yeah.

This is the tattoo. Like it's those short bursts of like the most crystal clear, true. That's true. That's real. And, you know, in some cases, especially if it's not a memoir, it it might be something where just the word choice is so boss, you know, like, oh my gosh, like you just put those three words together and who no one ever did that in the history of the world.

Wow.

um So sometimes it's that, but To me, good writing is, has been really edited. I'll also say that. Like this book, okay, I was trying to shop this book around. And then after a year of trying to shop it around, I cut 20,000 words.

wow

It is now 60,000 words. So there were 20,000 more words, stories, anecdotes, scenes that I had to go through and be like, hang on a second. This is not a scrapbook. This cannot just be a collection of things that happened. Yeah. Like I had taken a fiction class, honestly, and you learned in the fiction class, okay, the the character main character has to emotionally have an arc. She has to be different on page one than she is at the end.

Yeah. Yeah.

So now I'm like in this psycho meta space of like, okay, myself in 2016, how is she different then than in 2022, which is when the book ends? And then which scenes help to convey why and how she changed and which ones are actually just like maybe funny or moving, but not changing her narrative arc. And so I think good writing removes things until it's really bare to the bone and so worth reading every word.

yeah Very similar to painting, right? Like you have to be willing, one of the one of the biggest risks, well, overworking a painting kills it.

Ah,

But if you get too attached to a little spot in the painting, that's really good, but it doesn't fit the whole, you know, essence of the painting. and you get too like precious about one little spot, then, you know, like you have to just scrape it out, you know, or like paint over it. you Like you can't get, yeah

I'm so sweaty with you just saying that. Yeah.

yeah, just scrape it out.

Yeah.

um So you have to be willing to let go of a lot of the stuff that can feel protective. It's like, oh, but that's so nice. You know, that, that it's, it's hard.

Yes. yes

Editing is very hard.

Yeah, because I think underneath it, you're like, oh, my God, that was the best I'll ever do. And it will never I'll never be able to come up with something so good again. You know there's like you have to, I think, find some pliability in this art making where you say, yeah, all right, well, that was good, but it's not working. So it's not that good. you know And you have to be able to edit, rewrite. rewrite um Obviously, in writing, you have track changes, but.

Yeah, you can't equal get precious about it. You can't get precious about it. And you have to have faith that like, there's more where that came from. So, right, like you're you're not ah you're not working with a with what you've pulled out of a now dry well.

Bingo. Totally.

um its It's not a limited resource.

Yes.

But also, you know, for me, what what I, when I get really engaged with reading, whether it's book or poetry, which I i love poetry, um i'm I'm, first of all, transported.

Hmm.

So like I am fully not Tracey laying in bed or sitting in her chair or trying to read reading, right?

Yes, true.

I am somewhere else.

Yeah.

um And I am, you know, when I read a line that I want to underline, like So I was, you know, I don't, I didn't have an answer to that when I, when i asked you, but i I thought about it too. And it's because, you know, ultimately i I do think we're all living very separate. We're all trapped in these bodies. We never really know what somebody else is thinking or feeling is, and and we have art to try to share it. We have writing and painting and the arts. Like that's the only way we can kind of try to share and connect around things that we can't explain.

Yes.

um, that aren't just about Like no one cares about the the mechanics of most of our days, but it's these deeper things. And when someone can articulate it in a way where I feel like I experienced it too. Right. So it's a, it's a connecting that gap and and whether it's the perfect words or the, the perfect, um,

So good.

sense of place or or description of of an emotion or your thought process when it when it's like, I feel like i feel that. I feel like that as if I'm living it too. I think there's just an amazing connection that I i feel when language can do that for me. It makes me feel,

Have you ever heard like about um so I played a violin in orchestra in high school and if you play a pure a in like, like on my violin and there are like cellos or, you know, other string instruments. If I play a pure a they will resonate. They will, their, their strings, if you look at them, they will like hum a little bit.

Yes.

Like it'll resonate. Right. And I think that's really what you're talking about. And I had this experience, um, probably a month or two ago, Long story short, i've we've been volunteering lately with some elderly folks locally to us, and I drove 92-year-old woman to a fabric store. She wanted to buy fabric to make pajamas. It was the cutest thing that ever happened. And i you know It was like a 20-minute drive. and so were just talking, and she was telling me about her life. and um you know We went to this fabric store, and she was so excited just to kind of be out. you know she needed She needed a ride. She didn't get out so much. and She's looking around and just curious and looking at things. Oh, she needs some elastic for the pants that she was going to make. and It was just such a delight to let her get out of her house a little bit. And so, you know, we're driving back and um I said, what a nice time I had. I went in and helped her bring her stuff in. And I was trying to describe it to my friend the next day. And I was like, it's almost like, here comes the dog. It's almost like... It was like too hot. It was like, you know, when you're getting a sunburn, it's like something that is so beautiful, but it's like too hot. It's like I almost got like emotionally sunburned by this experience because it was so beautiful. And I was so glad to be there and have her in the car. And it was like, I just felt like I shouldn't be anywhere else right now. I should just be helping this woman in this moment in her life. And it was so strong. And and i was like, I think that's what God is. I think it's these moments where you're just like, I shouldn't be anywhere else but here. And if you can find a couple of those every once in a while, it knits you back into that reminder that on your worst days, like, all right, something's still out there. Like something is still bigger than me. And that is a relief.

It is. And it's, that's the magic, right? That's the bigness.

That's the magic.

That's God. That's magic. That's we all know it's there. Um, we all know that what we can see and explain and feel is like this tiny little snippet, you know, and just um consciousness, you know, where does it come from?

Yeah.

What does it mean? All those things are just, we we don't have answers, you know, we don't know and we don't like not knowing, but I love not knowing um because it,

Yeah. It would be so boring if we knew.

It would be really boring. Hold on. I got to let the dog out to say hello.

Let the dog out.

You can let him come out.

The dog's like,

but Brief interruption. Yeah. yeah Thank you. You know, you mentioned the chords, the pure A, and I think a lot about frequencies and energy and, um,

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like when you feel, you know, the things that that aren't physical that you can't see necessarily, but that you know are having an impact. And um i do think that your book and the writing and the journey that you take the reader on is so wonderful because it is just... um I mean, it's a journey and it's a magical, um, and also like very real, very, just like some days it was just, you know, a slog and there were hard things and amazing things.

yeah

And it was just, there was no, um nothing was glamorized. Nothing was made bigger than it needed to be or, or smaller than it needed to be. It was just like, i don't know. It just felt very true. And I just felt like I was there. um And

I'm so glad.

yeah I mean, your, your words and, and also your, the, your voice coming through and the, you know, that's the other thing.

Really.

And I kept asking myself when I was reading this, I'm like, can I hear her? because know her.

Mm-hmm.

So I know what she would sound like if she was saying these words, like I'm dying, really want to know what I want to talk to somebody who doesn't know you at all. Who's read the book.

Listeners, call in.

no That's right. Seriously. Like if any of you read the book and are you know now listening to the podcast or listening to the podcast and then go read the book and don't know Jen and, and

Mm-hmm.

and maybe, I don't know, I don't know how they would not know what you sound like now if they're listening to the podcast, but um just the way you phrase things and where you, where you push the back the boundaries of like what you're willing to consider and grapple with, like you really picked your battles um in this book. And I think must've picked battles when you were going through them. Right. But you were like, okay, This is what needs to be addressed. And you the way you would describe going through that was just very vulnerable and honest and, and

Yeah, I feel very, I feel like I'm about to be very naked all year next year. And I think that's also why my nervous system is a little bit tweaked because every time I imagine

yeah.

someone reading it it's almost I think I said this to you the other week like it's almost like I have to go pick up the book and start reading it to be like okay how would Tracey feel about this scene like I need to like empathetically reread for every single person that's reading and it's like well that's not scalable at all so that can't happen but there's also I can just feel that I'm learning some more also about boundaries in this situation. i mean, I am a coach, so I'm the listener, right? I'm also like a very engaging person. So I'm going to tell you like, well, you know, the dog just shit wherever, but I'm fine. What do you want to talk about today in coaching? You know, like I, I'm going to like be a real person, but coaching sessions are not about me. And as a coach, I need to be at least somewhat neutral to like what you're bringing to the table, right? I'm not judging it. We're just working with what we got. So And same with facilitation. Like when I'm teaching manager training, I'm really empowering the voices in the room. Like, what do you think? What's your experience here? You have wisdom, you know? And this book is all the lights just got turned in my direction. So it's really abnormal for me because like, you can even tell in this conversation, I'm like, okay, Tracey, how about your experience?

Amen.

Like, like probably that's just a nice thing to do, but you can tell it's, it's not, I'm not at ease with only talking about for myself. I want to be interactive. So i'm um I feel a little shy that like you know some of my clients will read it and they don't know what I think about after coaching. or you know like Some of the people have my trainings will read it and you know, they don't know that I wash my hands like a surgeon before teaching the class. And, you know, that's in the book. So, yeah, it's and i don't want anyone to think now that they've read my book, they know me more than I know myself. And so that's going to be a nice, gentle boundary for me to hold. Like people be like, oh, I bet you like this or don't like this because I read your book. It's like maybe but maybe I maybe there's like some distance there, too, you know.

Yeah, that's just gotta, it's the naked is gotta really feel that's a good word for it. Um, to some extent, ig again, with, with painting or even with what I put out, um, for work stuff, you know, even doing this podcast, it's, it's always vulnerable to put yourself out there.

Yeah.

Um, but, and and this is great because I get to talk to other people about their stuff. So, but, you know, it, it's, uh,

Yeah, true. Yeah.

this book is about you and what you went through and what you experienced and how that has changed you. And so, yeah, it's all there. There's nowhere to hide. There's no cover for you. And I, so I can understand, but I think that the book is not really about you.

Yeah. Right.

Right. So the book is about, for me, my takeaway, the book is about the fact that we, I think intrinsically have this curiosity and this understanding that there is a lot of other stuff going on.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Um, always. And that maybe it took something really scary and traumatic to open some doors or some, you know, like you tuned in to some things through that process that were undeniably,

yeah

ah not, you know, it wasn't like a dream. And even if it was like, who cares? Um, the the

Yeah.

the truth behind the things that you experienced and felt and then embraced, like what that has allowed you to grow into as a person, um I think is is universal. It's a universal thing that many of us do experience without a brain tumor, um but in moments of extreme fear, you know, like, oh my God, you know, and people often say like, oh, everyone should live their life like they've got a giant brain tumor and they, you know, don't know what's gonna happen next.

yeah Yeah.

um But that's so hard to do, ah you know, and it's not like everyone should go out there and like find some traumatic thing to happen.

Oh, yeah.

But we we kind of, think, tell ourselves like, oh, I don't want bad things to happen. And like, that's not life. Bad things going happen. um But bad, what does that what does bad mean? Like good and bad. Isn't isn't this all like our experience and don't we want it to be as as rich and and real and present as we possibly can? this Isn't that what we owe people?

Well, and i hope honestly that that's what's modeled in the book is this notion that like I feel very strongly I'm not some sort of like evangelist for any one religion or spirituality or anything over another.

That's right, no cults here, don't worry, no cults.

No call to that's the T-shirt. See, like, yeah, I'm not.

Right.

If anything, I just sort of want to be a permission slip for people to wonder what else might there be? And then to pay attention when you notice things that might give you an indication. of something for you and to not be like, well, that's explainable or I was a little tired that day or whatever, because I don't know who even cares. Maybe you were tired and maybe also something made itself known. And could you build your life by interacting, like co-creating

Yeah.

what how your life exists with a playful nature. with some For me, the bigness is playful. The bigness does not take offense. you know I mean, I literally can be like, dude, what is happening with this child? you know like like My interactions and playfulness with that force or presence, whatever you want to call it, are very natural to me. I don't need to kneel or... where religious paraphernalia when I play with that. And that to me is important because if it was the other way, it wouldn't be interesting to me. So I hope that the book invites people to um

Yeah.

to find their own version of that and know that that's okay. If it's not the same as mine, that's also okay. We're kind of both picking up on little heartbeats of what's going on.

Yeah. I think i I wrote this when I was writing about the book, just in sharing it with others. or, encourage you know, just talking about it, that, like, the notion of believing in everything is one of the...

yeah.

and and And reading the book and getting to the end, it was like, you know, I've got goosebumps just thinking about it. um What a beautiful and all-encompassing way to, to feel that connection without having it to be so sliced and diced and dogmatic. And, you know, it's this religion or it's this thing or explainable.

Yeah.

It's just like, no, just what's wrong with just believing in everything, you know?

Mm-hmm. And it does also help me blur boundaries. You know, like I listened to a Jewish podcast by a hilarious rabbi and I love it. And I'm not Jewish, but maybe in my heart I am a little bit. And, you know, and I go to an Episcopal church, which is very social justice oriented. And like, it allows me then to... move in and out of those spaces, take what resonates and not get hung up on the stuff that doesn't, you know, if if I have to belong to one thing, then there's like all kinds of guilt complex and who knows what else that comes with that, right?

Yeah, but I mean, it you know, also like all of these religions um all share like the same basic essence. And yeah i was listening to, i'm listening to season two of telepathy tapes. And first episode is all about NDEs, near-death experiences. And they had a, I forget the name of the individual who had, who was researching this. And I was shocked to find out that there is a, the first documented near-death experience is from like, 4000 BC or, you know, like, yeah.

Cool.

um So, you know, we've been talking about and and documenting and trying to connect around these experiences for way longer than there was was organized religion.

Yeah.

um And I, you know, I'm obsessed with cave paintings, right? Like,

Ooh.

what made them because when i learned that these caves are like it wasn't like they came upon a beautiful cave and they were like let's make pictures of the bison that we're going have for dinner or whatever they know they would like they'd find some little opening and they'd just have their little torches and they're and they crawl sometimes they'd have to crawl for a mile terrifying right and they wouldn't know what was in that cave i mean they'd be like

Yes. Great question. Nightmare. Yes. Yeah.

There could be anything in that cave, you know, as they're like, but they will go way back into it. And then they were like, oh, here's where we're going to make our masterpieces. Like you can't even see them unless you have fire. And, and who, so why were they doing that? And to me, it's like, you're boring into like the earth to, depict the these scenes that say, like, I'm here. This is my experience. This is the magic of it all. going to do these paintings in these magical places that are hard to get to and are so feel sacred and feel special. And so, like, that urge comes from a place that is not because, like, they were doing, you know, 20 Hail Marys or, ah you know, whatever.

Yeah. But it's also, it's such a good example of what happens if you make art only for yourself? Like i one of the hardest parts of this book was I had some really significant writer's block. I don't know, a few years ago where I wasn't even working on the book. I think I was just taking like a ah class for a few weeks on something. And I got to the point where I and made Chris and the boys leave the house. Cause I had to finish this like writing thing for homework. And I didn't want to type it because I didn't want there to be a history of it. And I wrote it on a piece of paper.

Mm-hmm.

i mean, it was like an exercise that it was just like, try to get some ideas down. You know, it was like not a big deal. And then i tore up the paper and i i now sound insane, but like I hid it in different garbage cans. Like I didn't want anybody to be able to put that together to see that I had written that. I was so in my head about it. And when I think about the freedom, i don't know how I might grant myself that. Maybe there would have to be a fire outside, you know, so I could immediately dispose of it and no one would ever know. But like, you know, or like when you think about um I think in college in a writing class, like we were all supposed to write a sex scene. And I was like, I'm going to go die. You know, like, I mean, I'm like a modern person now, but like, you know, there are some things that can be very triggering for entire classes of like 20 year olds, you know, like, Like if you knew you could burn it two seconds later, what would you write?

Right.

Like, what would you write if you knew nobody was ever going to read it or see it?

Right.

Would you put it in a cave a terrifying number of like miles underground where when I saw those videos, I was like, you guys are insane. I would literally never, ever go under that cave. I like I'm not afraid of death, but I feel a little claustrophobic sometimes. And I was like, that's my true nightmare. But you know, like what, what is in you that you would express if you never had to worry about being canceled? It's worth thinking about.

It's definitely worth thinking about. um I'm also, I'm reading the, is it the artist's way?

Oh yeah. Cameron.

Yeah.

Uh Yeah.

reading So I'm reading about the morning pages, right? And that idea of just getting up and writing, what, three pages, first thing.

aha yeah Yeah. Yep.

Even if it's just writing, like, I'm tired and don't feel like writing.

Yep.

Just write it. Because I think as much as it's a ah we block ourselves because we're afraid of what other people are going to think, um which is also like most people, I mean, good for you if you are able to get it out there in a way that anyone even pays attention to it, let alone thinks about it.

Yeah.

um But what is clogging up the the hose, you know, like what do you just kind of need to like, get or what's what's in that? What's in there that might be like ah a diamond, but it's so covered in all of the fear and the apprehension. And so you keep it inside or the or the bear runs through the cabin down the mountain and you lose it and it's gone forever.

Yeah.

Why not just keep putting it down, getting it out? How else do we move forward otherwise?

Well, that's the acorns, right? It's like, how do you have an abundant mindset?

Yeah.

This was a good idea, a good sentence, a good spot on the paint. Well, There'll be another one and there'll be another one. And sometimes I think it having ideas feels pressure. Like now it's a responsibility. So if I even sit down and write one little thing, then I'll feel the pressure to finish it later. And, you know, I'm busy this week. Like, ah you know, so like, is there, a more playful way that we can engage in creativity. I think it would be really fun to do a creative retreat with you, by the way. I'm just going to manifest this shit now. Like, I feel like we should take people to the woods and do stuff and then burn our art and go home happy. Like, you know, so boom, burn it all.

Yeah. Burn it all. Burn it all. We can wear where you wear masks. We don't even like know who other people are

Oh, no, it's like sleep. No more.

It can be like, um it can be like yellow jackets.

Did you ever know?

You know, we can like get tribal and burn underground.

Go underground. Only paint underground. That's the rule.

Ooh, this sounds like a fun retreat. i like it. Okay.

ah No ghosts. No ghosts. No backsees on ghosts. I only want to hear other people's stories.

Oh,

I can't have them in my life.

Oh, you've got them though. So

I know. Well.

yeah. If you got the bigness. um Yeah. There's so many, so many things. I have some other new experiences to share with you next time we we chat about mystical things, but um it does, I, do I, don I do think that like, if you aren't,

Oh. Oh.

hopefully going to wait around for traumatic events to crack things open. I do think that being purposeful about getting out into a place with other people or by yourself, where you can live in that silence and in those unknowns and in that questioning with no expectations, like you don't have to come out of that time with like your finished, you know, poem or painting or book.

yeah. yeah.

But you make space for it so you can listen and just hear the reverberations that are all around that are signals, signs, echoes, whatever it might be.

yeah

It's hard to hear it if you don't at least give yourself a little time and and space to to engage with it.

Totally. and And sometimes maybe you need to move location. Like I know that I always have huge ideas in airplanes, like insane ideas in airplanes, and I don't have Wi-Fi and I just like, it just goes big, big, big. And then I like end up with a, you know, 12 point plan by the time I land. And so if that is a thing, you know, if you know that you can't access that part of yourself in your home where there's laundry to be done, then

yeah

you know, maybe there's a way to leave. I had this re writing residency earlier this year at Virginia Center of the Creative Arts. And so it's in like Bumblefuck, Virginia, basically. And, you know, the book was done. it was edited. It was being sort of designed interior designed. So I didn't have a project. So i was like, well, this will be an interesting week, you know. And it was so hard, Tracey. Like all these other people were like off to work and they would go in their like little studios, which is so charming. They would go in their little studios and they would be like, now I'm going to write for 13 hours. And I would get in there and I would be like, um but what should I write about next? And I like could get some work done. And then I would be like, I need to leave. It was so hot. Also. I was like, I need to go to the thrift store right now. So like I would drive to a thrift store in bubble fuck Virginia. And, and then I would come back and I was like, do I have ADHD? Like what's wrong with me? Like why can't I sit here? So like what I learned about that is that if I am not in a state with a project where I'm deep in it and I just need time, It's not the right time for me to go away and seclude myself from everyone else. It was really lonely.

Yeah.

It was a little bit weird. Like everybody else was full force at work and I was a little bumpy. I mean, it was it was nice to have the experience for sure. But I realized that there are flavors of that, of leaving my normal life, depending on what phase I'm at with a project that is is going to be better than others, you know.

Did you set so this is a selfish question because I know I work really good I work better. I'm more productive when I have a deadline. Did you give yourself milestones or deadlines during the course of this book in whether it was in the writing or in the publishing or editing or any of that?

Well, i ah signed up for like a year long manuscript program a few years in which I then kind of renewed for a second year where there was a woman I knew who's a writer and she was like a teacher. And so There was nothing like too heavy handed in terms of structure, but like I would get her pages every however often I wanted things like that. So she was like a very early reader of the manuscript. And I mean, it's changed so, so much since then. That was helpful. And then, um is like I took some writing classes, like I said, that were either fiction or essay or whatever, but when I would start to just need some accountability and somebody to like look at some stuff, most of that was for a new writing, but there were a couple classes that I applied to and got into that were based on the fact that like I have a whole manuscript that's

Yeah.

What do I do next? You know, so like there was one about how to publish your manuscript once you have it done. And there was another one about memoir revision and stuff. So those structures helped me have not only like the the deadline for those things, but the people in my life and the my network growing for people in those spaces. I also work well with a deadline, but not at least for this book, not creatively. It's just the pressure that I put on myself then for that deadline with kids. It's like, I can't stay up late anymore. That's not my vibe. I get up at 545 in the morning and I do morning pages actually and yoga in the morning and then I wake the kids up. So that is its own practice.

Yeah.

But I, i can't pull all nighters. I can't, you know, and yeah.

Oh yeah, no, when I say deadline, I don't mean all-nighters, more just there is a, yeah, some accountability.

Yeah. Like accountability.

I think accountability, but that requires, some people are good at at setting their own deadlines and accountabilities.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I think sometimes it's so helpful to have someone else that you have said, okay, you know, I will get this to you by then.

Definitely. Yeah. I think that there were periods of writing this book where I did have that or like I would the first few people that I shared it with it was like oh my god. is someone else actually going to see this? So then i I would like trick myself. I would say like, okay, I'll send it to you by next Friday. And then I'd be like, I got to get like all this place. it's like It's like spring cleaning your house before someone comes over, you know. So that was those were like good little motivational steps. And yeah, I just don't know like at what phase of life do you not operate like this? Like when the kids go to college? Like I'm not really sure. Maybe someone can call in from... the listeners who kids are older.

I know I wish we were on the radio and we could take, yeah, we could take live calls.

Oh my God. Maybe we should do a radio show.

Right?

All right. Anyway, I'm going back to 2011 again.

Oh, well, all right, no, let's do it.

ah

um From the cave.

From the cave. Oh my God. but

So, you know, you look, that's such a reality, like kids, you got your own business. you got a relationship, you've got family, you've got, you know, other things you're doing that are fulfilling in your life, know, you're driving 92 year olds to the fabric store. and And I love that you talked about doing more of that type of of living and connecting in the book.

yeah.

But I think that we can so easily beat ourselves up if we're not like being creative all the time. You know, you're not immediately writing the next book or even going into this book, being able to say like, oh, and prior to this, I had, I did this and this and this, and we think it's all got to stack and be constantly churning.

yeah.

um But I don't think that means you're living a good life, you know?

ah hu

so for you right now looking forward, what is what is a good, what what are you looking forward to in terms of like, that's what a good life is going to feel like? Um,

Well, do you know that's my tattoo? Have we talked about that? Go have a good life.

I'll have a good life.

Yeah, that's from like a year ago. I had an MRI that was a little problematic and I saw an eye doctor who needed to weigh in on it and it's very gentle, like older South Asian man and he like looks at all the film and and then he says, you know, I don't I think it's OK. I think check it in a year, which is what we just did then. Right. and he kind of like put his hand on my shoulder and said, i don't want you to worry about this. I want you to go have a good life. And all of a sudden it was it was like that.

That's incredible.

That's the T-shirt, except it was like, oh my God, that's the tattoo. And I like, I've always wanted a tattoo, you know?

that the kept

So then i I was like, oh my God. And then I was like, let's just make sure you're not like literally just happy because you're not going to die again. You know, like, and then I was like, no, no, it still is the tattoo. And then I got a tattoo. I think that, For me, that creative mojo, i'm I'm so liberal arts about it in many ways. Like right now that's manifesting as embroidering Christmas ornaments. Like I'm banging out a bunch of those while we watch TV.

Thank

And, ah you know, sometimes it's writing and sometimes it's Plucky stuff. and And right now I'm like researching what the hell kind of envelopes should I buy so that people, so that I could send these books out, you know, or like we made a really funny postcard. If you pre-order the book or if you order the book through Plucky's website, you'll Get a very funny postcard in inside that, you know, reminds you to review it on Amazon or Goodreads. And then it also says, like, if you didn't like the book, you can just forget you read it. And there's like a picture of my dog giving you a side eye. Like, you know, funny little things like that. So i think a good life is just to engage with the world, like not just walk through it, but...

Yeah.

Find moments where you can tweak it or make something or I'm not really a cooking person, but some people cook and that's their creative of outlet. like But to allow what is natural and intuitive to happen and pick up the phone and call the person that you know will give you energy when you need it. Listen to podcasts when you need it, but also take a long quiet walk when you need it. like Don't let other expectations from external things. dictate what you do you know what you need i mean it's almost 100 true in coaching you might need confidence to do it but you know what the right answer is like 99 of the time and i just think as a coach but now of course also as like a recipient of um help from other people like i'm not usually that far off so keep following that and that i think would be a great life

Yeah, it's ah it's easier than Well, and and I do want to acknowledge that like, there are a lot of people who literally cannot go have a good life, right? um

Yep.

So if you have the ability, then don't be the one to stop yourself.

Yep. Yeah. I mean, isn't that so true? Like who's putting ceilings on us for sure. Sometimes it's external forces, but we're also putting a lot of a ceilings on ourselves all the time.

Yeah.

And I sometimes will be coaching someone who knows they should leave their job and is voicing. I want to leave my job. And in my head, I'm like, You need to leave yesterday. But like, you know, again, trying to be sort of neutral. And and that roundabout can happen for like for years. A person, this really isn't right. It can happen in relationships too. It can happen for like, I don't know that kind of house you live in or like all those kinds of things. All of us have tiny or big feelings intuitively that like this isn't working anymore. and and the the bravest thing you can do is to to leave it, quit, you know, like, or, or adopt something new or whatever it is, but like make that change because the distress and the trauma that happens from staying in something that doesn't fit anymore is so like, nobody ever talks about that. It's, you don't win because you stayed married for 50 years. You win if it was a good life, you know?

No.

i don't know if you win anyway, but you know what i'm saying?

Yeah.

Like,

Yeah. And I don't think if you don't change things, like I think about people, so many people who are have jobs that they hate and they stay because I think they they're you know it's safe, right?

Definitely.

it's It feels safer than then leaving without already knowing exactly what the next better thing is going to be.

definitely

But you aren't making any room for that next better thing to show up if you just are hedging your bets like that. You know, I think there's life is so much richer when you when you commit to a decision that feels like you're honoring your spirit, your soul and and don't think you need to have it all figured out before you do that.

Yeah. Someone told me this phrase a couple weeks ago, the surface area of serendipity. And I'm like obsessed with it now. And I just released day of big dreaming stuff like two days ago. And that's the theme this year. Ready, set, serendipity, which is like, yes, you should have goals and you should set up your life to know what shots are you going take next year, but also What about all the stuff on the very large fringe? What about all those invitations you couldn't even predict could come your way next year? Or the people who are are gonna find an opportunity for you, right? Like if you stay in a windowless room in your basement, the opportunities are gonna be much more limited than if you are out and about. And I don't mean go burn yourself out on the conference circuit or whatever the hell people are going to turn that all the way up on. But like just where how are you making space for serendipity? And I think that's where those magic moments happen, where that sunburned feeling like you know I'm in a 92-year-old's house and her husband passed away three months ago and she's lonely and I'm feeling like

They do.

how did I even get here? Like but yesterday I was coaching and in two hours I'll be coaching and now I'm in this lady's house and like her cat's name is Bob. Like what? It's just like, it's like as if someone plucked me up and stuck me in a short story and now I'm going back to my other life. You know, those serendipitous moments are so, they can be some of the most meaningful things that happen in my week.

Yeah. And they happen all the time if you, if you allow them to, and you're right, you cannot do it in a windowless room in your basement.

Yeah. Yes.

i used to when I was just, you know, going through my divorce, moved into an apartment. First time I'm living on my own, you know, I think i was 47 years old. um And I just, I mean, I was traumatized. I was upset. I was feeling very, you know, had the rug pulled out from under me ah on so many different levels. And just started to realize, like you got to get out there. Who knows what's going to happen, but you got say yes. And you're not going to have anything to say yes to if you just sit here and like be broken.

yeah Yeah.

You know, and, uh, and a lot of times it's not, it's the thing you don't want to do. It's like going to the gym, you know, like, do you want to do it? do You feel like it don't wait around until you feel like it, you know, do not wait around until you feel like it or you're inspired or you suddenly have the great idea.

Yes.

No, that's where the work I think does come in to every day.

Yeah.

Just making sure that you're, you're expanding that surface area. um so that those things can, can come in and be be part of what enriches your life. And so that you can have a good life. I don't think we do this on our own.

Yep.

So

Plus one to everything.

plus one plus 10 plus million. um

Plus a million.

Jen, thank you so much for writing this book for coming on this podcast and talking about it for being a friend, and being who you are and just um i i hope everyone reads this book and trust me you will be better off for it and it will give you so much to carry forward with in your journey um it's like a it's like having a best friend on like

Thank you.

oh, scary shit could happen or i want more magic, but I'm stressed out and I'm a mom and I'm busy and I'm doing all these things. and And yet the grace that you can find and that you found going even in the messiest of and hardest of times was just a beautiful journey to be allowed to go on with you. So thank you.

Well, thank you. And I hope when people read it, i hope they feel like we're just hanging out. And that really was so much of the tone was it's I mean, I'm a coach, right? I'm here to hang out with you and we'll handle the hard stuff together. And so, um you know, i I hope that it's underlineable for people and that they feel invited to sort of wonder.

I can't wait for all the people start sharing their underlines. Anyone who's listening, let's like make that a thing. Let's share our underlines for this book or any books really, but especially this one. So once again, go out and get it, pre-order it. I believe in everything and they can, where can people get your book? Yeah.

They can actually get it anywhere they want. um I'm not sure if we're going to post this right...

We'll include will for links and all of that, but if you're listening, you're in the comments, you know.

Yeah, you can do it anywhere, but you could also get on, if you go on beplucky.com to the shop, I'll sign a book for you and you can get it there too.

Great. All right. well Well, we'll include links on in the show notes and otherwise just Google it or go to goplucky.com and get yourself this book and read it. It's a it's page turner. i mean, I, I, Flew through it. I was not expecting that. I know what I was expecting, but I literally could not put it down until I finished it and then had to text you at two in the morning. Sorry about that.

That's what happened to you, everyone.

oh

Five stars from Tracey Halvorsen and a sleepless night.

That's right. Sleepless nights, late night texts, five stars. i Everyone listening, thanks for tuning in and let's all go have a good life.