WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.122 --> 00:00:04.796 And I think part of it is developing the skill set to know when to use it, 2 00:00:04.796 --> 00:00:06.458 how to use it, how much to use, 3 00:00:06.458 --> 00:00:11.073 you know, when not to use it, how to basically like making it a a tool 4 00:00:11.133 --> 00:00:15.257 in your toolkit, not just some kind of like red button you smash every once 5 00:00:15.257 --> 00:00:18.790 in a while. Like AI that like there needs to be a little bit more 6 00:00:18.790 --> 00:00:19.500 dexterity. 7 00:00:27.983 --> 00:00:32.994 Hello everyone. This is Tracey Halvorsen with another episode of Escape Velocity. 8 00:00:32.994 --> 00:00:35.745 It has been a minute. Life has been crazy, 9 00:00:35.745 --> 00:00:40.607 and I'm really excited to be having this conversation today with 10 00:00:40.607 --> 00:00:43.297 my friend and colleague Joe Rinaldi. 11 00:00:43.297 --> 00:00:48.573 a little bit about Joe. I think I became aware 12 00:00:48.573 --> 00:00:55.271 of Joe at least probably 15 years ago when we were competing against 13 00:00:54.919 --> 00:00:56.152 Yeah. Yeah. 14 00:00:55.651 --> 00:00:56.651 each other. 15 00:00:56.371 --> 00:01:02.195 In our agency positions. And then we met up at one of the very first 16 00:01:02.231 --> 00:01:06.387 Bureau of Digital Events, the original owner camp or whatever it 17 00:01:04.429 --> 00:01:08.587 Mm-hmm. Yep, yep, yep. The OG owner camp. 18 00:01:06.387 --> 00:01:08.478 was called back then, at 19 00:01:08.778 --> 00:01:12.360 the OG owner camp. And we became fast friends from 20 00:01:11.813 --> 00:01:12.813 We did. 21 00:01:12.360 --> 00:01:14.872 that point on. And I remember you'd send me messages every now and then, 22 00:01:14.872 --> 00:01:16.993 like, God damn it, or like, sorry. 23 00:01:17.881 --> 00:01:18.881 Ha ha ha. 24 00:01:18.854 --> 00:01:20.856 as we continued to compete against each other, 25 00:01:20.856 --> 00:01:23.267 but I loved that spirit of camaraderie that we 26 00:01:21.037 --> 00:01:23.354 Uh-huh. 27 00:01:23.481 --> 00:01:24.481 that we 28 00:01:23.761 --> 00:01:27.522 established and have maintained all the way through and fast forward to today, 29 00:01:27.522 --> 00:01:30.253 we continue to work with each other, 30 00:01:30.253 --> 00:01:32.443 not compete against each other, 31 00:01:32.443 --> 00:01:34.944 but we do a lot of I you know, 32 00:01:34.944 --> 00:01:37.815 we're we're in cahoots in a lot of ways. 33 00:01:37.815 --> 00:01:44.427 and so Joe, just d give everybody a a download on you, 34 00:01:44.427 --> 00:01:46.878 what you're all about, and we'll take it from there. 35 00:01:47.028 --> 00:01:49.730 Sure. Yeah. So I I would agree with your assessment. 36 00:01:49.730 --> 00:01:54.385 We had a real cheers versus Gary's Old Town Tavern kind of vibe back in the day, 37 00:01:54.385 --> 00:01:56.747 which is a very dated reference and we'll 38 00:01:55.007 --> 00:01:56.007 Yes. 39 00:01:56.807 --> 00:01:58.939 will explain that I'm 50 years old to everybody. 40 00:01:58.939 --> 00:02:00.900 but yeah, now now we're fast, 41 00:02:00.900 --> 00:02:02.741 we're best buddies, and we work on a variety of things. 42 00:02:02.741 --> 00:02:04.573 And I think actually, Trace, the way you describe it, 43 00:02:04.573 --> 00:02:07.104 like because we work in a variety of ways together, 44 00:02:07.104 --> 00:02:11.388 that is very like descriptive of the weird role and job that I have, 45 00:02:11.388 --> 00:02:12.389 where I have like, 46 00:02:12.539 --> 00:02:15.611 Lots of different Lego pieces that I fit into in what I 47 00:02:15.260 --> 00:02:16.260 Yeah. 48 00:02:15.611 --> 00:02:20.886 do these days. so half of my time roughly is spent running what I call Clutch, 49 00:02:20.886 --> 00:02:24.278 which is my biz dev consulting company where I work with agencies 50 00:02:24.278 --> 00:02:25.743 and small teams and individuals. 51 00:02:25.743 --> 00:02:28.512 I basically help them level up their biz dev process. 52 00:02:28.512 --> 00:02:30.505 You know, when I was competing with you, 53 00:02:30.505 --> 00:02:33.886 I was the biz dev guy, and that's kind of where my background lies. 54 00:02:33.886 --> 00:02:38.939 So for the past 10 years, I've worked with nearly a hundred agencies helping them 55 00:02:38.939 --> 00:02:39.939 just kind of 56 00:02:39.710 --> 00:02:44.203 level up and evolve and change and grow their biz dev process. 57 00:02:44.203 --> 00:02:48.366 while doing that, it became very apparent to me that when 58 00:02:48.366 --> 00:02:51.528 I wasn't actually selling the clients while teaching, 59 00:02:51.528 --> 00:02:53.369 my knives were getting very dull. 60 00:02:53.369 --> 00:02:59.022 Like I was losing the thread of like how challenging it is and how much it changes. 61 00:02:59.022 --> 00:03:02.495 And and I worked briefly for about three years with SuperFriendly with 62 00:03:02.495 --> 00:03:04.196 Dan Mall and I was his biz dev guy. 63 00:03:04.196 --> 00:03:05.487 And that really opened my eyes that like 64 00:03:05.637 --> 00:03:07.528 For me to be good at teaching people how to do business, 65 00:03:07.528 --> 00:03:09.079 I need to sell directly to clients. 66 00:03:09.079 --> 00:03:11.160 Like I need to not be the some kind of like, 67 00:03:11.160 --> 00:03:12.661 you know, I don't do it anymore. 68 00:03:12.661 --> 00:03:13.932 I just talk about it all the time. 69 00:03:13.932 --> 00:03:17.444 and in service of that, and then as like the stars lined up, 70 00:03:17.444 --> 00:03:21.366 past four years, I've now kind of been part of Pine Works, 71 00:03:21.366 --> 00:03:25.247 which is a bunch of old happy cog friends back from the days when I used 72 00:03:25.247 --> 00:03:28.299 to compete with you. a bunch of those folks getting together 73 00:03:28.299 --> 00:03:30.000 and doing projects together again. 74 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.442 a little bit more on the software development side with some design. 75 00:03:33.442 --> 00:03:34.442 It's, you know. 76 00:03:34.152 --> 00:03:38.555 I feel like back in the Happy Cog days it was probably like 70-30 design focus 77 00:03:38.705 --> 00:03:40.216 and development. This is probably the opposite. 78 00:03:40.216 --> 00:03:44.649 It's probably like 70% focused on software development and 30% focused on design. 79 00:03:45.046 --> 00:03:46.046 Yeah. 80 00:03:45.540 --> 00:03:46.800 but that's how I split my time now. 81 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.143 I split my time either working with agencies to help coach them or or, 82 00:03:51.143 --> 00:03:52.834 you know, live in the trenches, 83 00:03:52.834 --> 00:03:55.856 consult with them and write RFP responses with them and do all 84 00:03:55.856 --> 00:03:58.508 the blocking and tackling, or I'm over here and I'm 85 00:03:58.658 --> 00:04:02.701 selling a big project to a client for Pine Works or I'm recruiting people into 86 00:04:02.701 --> 00:04:07.214 a Pine Works team to be I'm kind of like the the Nick Fury assembling Avengers 87 00:04:07.364 --> 00:04:09.885 on the Pine Works side. That's kind of and I and then I get out of the way. 88 00:04:09.885 --> 00:04:13.548 And then like I let the the really talented people take over and I go talk 89 00:04:13.548 --> 00:04:15.538 to other people. So yeah that that's 90 00:04:14.830 --> 00:04:15.830 Yeah. 91 00:04:15.638 --> 00:04:19.611 yeah that's my MO. And I I think the other thing that you've hit on that 92 00:04:19.611 --> 00:04:24.224 I think is a part of like why you and I are so connected is like you, 93 00:04:24.224 --> 00:04:27.446 I've always been very passionate about building community. 94 00:04:27.596 --> 00:04:29.767 And kind of building relationships through community. 95 00:04:29.767 --> 00:04:31.808 So like way, way, way back in the day, 96 00:04:31.808 --> 00:04:34.550 back when I was a recruiter in like the early 2000s, 97 00:04:34.550 --> 00:04:38.062 I created PhilaMade, which was a Philadelphia-based creative community. 98 00:04:38.062 --> 00:04:40.223 the bureau kind of grew out of that. 99 00:04:40.223 --> 00:04:43.934 The and now I do my own events where I try to bring people together and kind 100 00:04:43.934 --> 00:04:45.385 of have like little, you know, 101 00:04:45.385 --> 00:04:51.018 two-day kind of unstructured, let's figure out what the world looks like events. 102 00:04:51.018 --> 00:04:54.390 and I like to support other people that are doing the same thing, 103 00:04:54.390 --> 00:04:55.390 whether that's 104 00:04:55.170 --> 00:04:57.221 Our buddy Ashley Budd, or it's Richard, 105 00:04:57.221 --> 00:04:59.923 or it's, you know, Revenue Captain Chris Free doing stuff. 106 00:04:59.923 --> 00:05:02.465 I love like Jen Derry's got a book signing. 107 00:05:02.465 --> 00:05:07.989 Like I love trying to put energy into people staying connected in real life 108 00:05:07.989 --> 00:05:11.290 and through real communities. And 'cause like amazing opportunities kind 109 00:05:11.290 --> 00:05:14.553 of spring out of that stuff if you if you do it right. 110 00:05:14.553 --> 00:05:16.054 So I've I've always that's 111 00:05:15.426 --> 00:05:16.426 Yeah. 112 00:05:16.054 --> 00:05:18.245 like my I guess my secret is, you know, 113 00:05:18.245 --> 00:05:22.647 Biz Dev as it as a function of like community has been kind of my my MO. 114 00:05:23.157 --> 00:05:28.880 full disclosure, you know, I worked with you when I 115 00:05:28.880 --> 00:05:33.664 was really coming out of my period of non-compete. 116 00:05:33.664 --> 00:05:35.836 I'd kind of laid low, you know, 117 00:05:34.073 --> 00:05:36.022 Yeah. Yeah. 118 00:05:35.836 --> 00:05:36.836 licked 119 00:05:36.106 --> 00:05:39.279 my wounds, like explored other things. 120 00:05:38.467 --> 00:05:41.392 And you were like sharpening your knives and yeah. 121 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.882 yeah, sitting there and getting 122 00:05:41.392 --> 00:05:42.795 Yeah. 123 00:05:42.882 --> 00:05:46.695 antsy to to get back out there and what that would look like and how that would what 124 00:05:46.695 --> 00:05:48.927 that would look like with with adeo. 125 00:05:49.747 --> 00:05:51.048 what that would look like for me. 126 00:05:51.048 --> 00:05:56.938 And y you were so helpful in cueing that up and framing it 127 00:05:56.938 --> 00:06:01.160 and kind of kicking me a few times when I needed a a good kick to, 128 00:06:00.980 --> 00:06:06.854 Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Now once I realized that you were yeah, 129 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:05.953 you know? Yeah. Just you were like my my get back out there coach. 130 00:06:06.854 --> 00:06:11.347 you were actually string or bell from the wire and all of all 131 00:06:11.347 --> 00:06:13.859 of your content strategy should really be wee back up. 132 00:06:13.859 --> 00:06:18.301 Yeah, a hundred percent. So good. 133 00:06:14.676 --> 00:06:17.130 Yeah, yeah there it is. You sent me that. 134 00:06:17.130 --> 00:06:21.306 We back up. The little plaque yeah, 135 00:06:18.301 --> 00:06:22.184 Love it. But once once I once I figured out that 136 00:06:21.306 --> 00:06:22.528 sits on my sits on my desk. 137 00:06:22.678 --> 00:06:24.519 so good. Yeah, you're stringer bell. 138 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:25.760 Once I figured out you stringer bell, 139 00:06:25.760 --> 00:06:27.521 all the advice was easy at that point. 140 00:06:28.557 --> 00:06:30.918 Well, you are you are a great prophet, 141 00:06:30.918 --> 00:06:34.440 my man. Great seer. but no, I I think that was, 142 00:06:34.440 --> 00:06:37.271 you know, we'd we'd been staying connected over the years, 143 00:06:37.271 --> 00:06:39.792 but that experience was really helpful. 144 00:06:39.792 --> 00:06:45.834 And and also just working with with you on on trying to leverage the what 145 00:06:45.834 --> 00:06:47.765 do you call it, like sort of your surface, 146 00:06:47.765 --> 00:06:51.926 like expanding your surface reach, 147 00:06:50.924 --> 00:06:53.887 Area for opportunity. That's that's my yeah. 148 00:06:51.926 --> 00:06:55.458 yeah, area for opportunity, right? 149 00:06:53.887 --> 00:06:55.580 Just just creating more 150 00:06:55.580 --> 00:06:58.343 surface area for opportunity. Just finding ways to, 151 00:06:58.343 --> 00:07:02.596 you know, catch more strays and and have more conversations and connect 152 00:07:02.566 --> 00:07:03.566 And that does 153 00:07:02.596 --> 00:07:03.596 to more things. 154 00:07:03.668 --> 00:07:04.668 Yeah. 155 00:07:04.047 --> 00:07:07.879 and I love that like for you that does not mean networking. 156 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:10.970 You know, it's like we all I hate networking, 157 00:07:10.477 --> 00:07:11.891 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 158 00:07:10.970 --> 00:07:12.170 but I like expanding 159 00:07:12.170 --> 00:07:14.822 my surface area for opportunity. 160 00:07:14.273 --> 00:07:16.294 Yeah. yeah, yeah. No. 161 00:07:14.822 --> 00:07:16.442 That's a very different 162 00:07:16.442 --> 00:07:17.453 way of looking at it, you know? 163 00:07:17.603 --> 00:07:19.043 Yeah, you like a cocktail party, 164 00:07:19.043 --> 00:07:21.714 but you're not looking for a cocktail party where like someone's 165 00:07:21.714 --> 00:07:24.793 got business cards in their front pocket and they're desperate to hand them out. 166 00:07:24.793 --> 00:07:25.995 Like you like a cocktail party 167 00:07:25.526 --> 00:07:26.526 No. 168 00:07:26.235 --> 00:07:28.846 where we start to talk about weird stuff and you know, 169 00:07:28.846 --> 00:07:31.697 one person sitting on a table and everybody's having a good time. 170 00:07:31.697 --> 00:07:33.518 Like and I think that's a critical difference. 171 00:07:33.518 --> 00:07:36.658 I think there is like there's a way to do events that are more buttoned 172 00:07:36.658 --> 00:07:39.039 up than networking and yada yada yada. 173 00:07:39.039 --> 00:07:40.830 And there's a way to do events where it's like, 174 00:07:40.830 --> 00:07:41.920 you know, actually. 175 00:07:42.070 --> 00:07:45.304 If you do a smaller event and you're really choosy about who you invite 176 00:07:45.304 --> 00:07:47.367 to the event and then you whatever, 177 00:07:47.367 --> 00:07:50.091 sprinkle in a little whatever and let them do their thing, 178 00:07:50.091 --> 00:07:53.198 I think that there's it's a wholly different thing than than what 179 00:07:53.198 --> 00:07:54.370 you consider like networking. 180 00:07:54.520 --> 00:07:57.972 It is. And I think, you know, I just had to realize about myself, 181 00:07:57.972 --> 00:07:59.873 which I've known for a long time, 182 00:07:59.873 --> 00:08:05.276 is that I I'm like allergic to sir to superficial conversation. 183 00:08:05.276 --> 00:08:07.454 It I can't I can't even do it. 184 00:08:07.454 --> 00:08:09.146 Like chit chat I 185 00:08:08.688 --> 00:08:09.688 Right. 186 00:08:09.215 --> 00:08:10.796 I mean I can I can do it a little bit, 187 00:08:10.796 --> 00:08:12.157 but I'm I'm 188 00:08:12.307 --> 00:08:17.561 I I'm plagued by this like urge to really dig in and 189 00:08:17.683 --> 00:08:18.683 Yeah. 190 00:08:18.084 --> 00:08:21.437 get into get into like go deep mode and you know, 191 00:08:21.258 --> 00:08:22.258 Yeah. 192 00:08:21.437 --> 00:08:22.437 that's 193 00:08:21.997 --> 00:08:23.478 that requires a certain platform. 194 00:08:23.478 --> 00:08:24.909 that's why I love this podcast, 195 00:08:24.909 --> 00:08:27.180 which you encouraged me to to start. 196 00:08:27.943 --> 00:08:28.943 It's the best. 197 00:08:28.421 --> 00:08:32.344 because I have I have long deep conversations with people and and then I, 198 00:08:32.344 --> 00:08:35.356 you know, it's really scratching my own itch there. 199 00:08:34.917 --> 00:08:38.258 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Legit. I totally get it. 200 00:08:35.356 --> 00:08:37.768 Yeah. 201 00:08:38.258 --> 00:08:39.520 It's yeah, it 202 00:08:39.520 --> 00:08:41.172 nobody's got time for that. Nobody's got time. 203 00:08:41.172 --> 00:08:43.443 You're busy, you got a life, you got, 204 00:08:43.443 --> 00:08:46.044 you know, kids and this and that and whatever. 205 00:08:46.044 --> 00:08:48.255 Like I I don't have time to mess around. 206 00:08:48.255 --> 00:08:50.947 Like I I gotta I gotta find the right spots, 207 00:08:50.947 --> 00:08:53.338 plunge into them and you know, 208 00:08:53.338 --> 00:08:56.441 be myself real quick and then it's you know, 209 00:08:56.441 --> 00:08:58.521 'cause I got like I got two more things I gotta do after this. 210 00:08:58.521 --> 00:08:59.923 Like I gotta I gotta run around. 211 00:08:59.780 --> 00:09:00.780 Yeah. 212 00:08:59.923 --> 00:09:00.923 So yeah, 213 00:09:00.242 --> 00:09:01.242 I 214 00:09:00.502 --> 00:09:02.981 We're very we're wired very similarly in that kind of 215 00:09:02.981 --> 00:09:05.217 impatience about inauthenticity. 216 00:09:05.217 --> 00:09:06.530 Like I just don't have time for it. 217 00:09:05.608 --> 00:09:06.608 Yes. And I also think 218 00:09:06.539 --> 00:09:12.184 it it requires you to develop a skill for ruthless curation because you 219 00:09:12.184 --> 00:09:15.156 do have to prioritize, right? And you you can't do it all. 220 00:09:13.199 --> 00:09:14.801 I like that. I do like 221 00:09:15.156 --> 00:09:16.156 So you do have 222 00:09:16.147 --> 00:09:19.349 to be a ruthless curator. And and 223 00:09:18.358 --> 00:09:19.358 Yeah. Yeah. 224 00:09:19.830 --> 00:09:24.153 that's something I've been realizing with all of this stuff going on with 225 00:09:24.153 --> 00:09:28.036 AI that I actually have to sharpen that skill again because AI can let 226 00:09:27.406 --> 00:09:30.452 Totally. Totally. 227 00:09:28.036 --> 00:09:30.298 you do so much at the same time. 228 00:09:30.602 --> 00:09:31.602 Totally. 229 00:09:31.219 --> 00:09:32.219 It's 230 00:09:31.732 --> 00:09:34.212 it's like, okay, well just 'cause I can does not mean I should, 231 00:09:34.212 --> 00:09:35.699 right? 232 00:09:35.146 --> 00:09:36.146 Right. I think 233 00:09:35.726 --> 00:09:37.227 I think you're I couldn't agree more. 234 00:09:37.227 --> 00:09:42.060 I feel like in the past eighteen months as AI has like rapidly scaled, 235 00:09:42.060 --> 00:09:45.982 and now there's this kind of scaling of inauthenticity that floods out of 236 00:09:46.132 --> 00:09:50.855 a lot of AI enablement. there is there is in parallel, 237 00:09:50.855 --> 00:09:56.618 there's an amazing amount of of value and perceived equity in in person experiences, 238 00:09:56.618 --> 00:09:57.979 real life connections. 239 00:09:58.129 --> 00:10:01.170 authentic conversations. Like I I don't know that they're like directly linked. 240 00:10:01.170 --> 00:10:03.151 It's it's too coincidental not to be, 241 00:10:03.151 --> 00:10:05.181 you know, related in some way though, 242 00:10:05.181 --> 00:10:10.524 where there is this perception of a lot of inauthenticity kind of dialing up. 243 00:10:10.524 --> 00:10:15.386 And in parallel, you know, people are dying to go to an event that Ashley's hosting. 244 00:10:15.386 --> 00:10:17.126 People are dying to go to a Richard event. 245 00:10:17.126 --> 00:10:20.638 People are dying, you know, like there's I have a lot more success having 246 00:10:20.638 --> 00:10:23.269 a coffee with somebody than I used to because I think there is like 247 00:10:24.169 --> 00:10:25.410 a a very parallel 248 00:10:25.940 --> 00:10:30.933 value in the IRL stuff while you perceive that there can be so much scaled 249 00:10:30.933 --> 00:10:32.344 and authentic stuff at the same time. 250 00:10:32.344 --> 00:10:33.344 And I think it's kind of a good thing. 251 00:10:33.344 --> 00:10:36.597 Like I think like this the AI enablement stuff's not going away. 252 00:10:36.597 --> 00:10:41.099 I'm glad that we're not retreating into our little turtle shells and hiding from, 253 00:10:41.099 --> 00:10:44.342 you know, the AI stuff and and hunkering down. 254 00:10:44.342 --> 00:10:48.594 Instead, people are kind of fighting back and they want to like spend time with real 255 00:10:48.594 --> 00:10:49.945 people that they know and trust. 256 00:10:49.945 --> 00:10:52.266 And and and trusting people means a lot more. 257 00:10:52.416 --> 00:10:54.196 than it meant three years ago. 258 00:10:54.196 --> 00:10:57.939 Like that and I th there's like a more equity in that now than there 259 00:10:57.939 --> 00:11:01.645 was before there was this specter of like did an email come from you or 260 00:11:01.645 --> 00:11:03.582 did an email come from like, you know, 261 00:11:03.582 --> 00:11:06.843 your little agentic buddy. Like what's going what's going on with this email? 262 00:11:06.843 --> 00:11:08.294 So, you know, I think it's like, 263 00:11:08.294 --> 00:11:10.074 you know, you and I text. Like that, 264 00:11:10.074 --> 00:11:13.986 like the fact that you and I text is a wholly different form factor 265 00:11:13.986 --> 00:11:16.247 of conversation than if I was sending you emails. 266 00:11:16.247 --> 00:11:17.247 Like 267 00:11:16.591 --> 00:11:17.591 I don't 268 00:11:16.831 --> 00:11:19.964 know, pretty pretty soon I think our agents will be able to text each other text. 269 00:11:18.935 --> 00:11:22.380 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's yeah, 270 00:11:19.964 --> 00:11:22.955 So yeah, don't don't hold on to that for too long. 271 00:11:22.380 --> 00:11:23.380 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 272 00:11:23.091 --> 00:11:24.493 Yeah. That's only right now, I guess, 273 00:11:24.493 --> 00:11:25.493 yeah. 274 00:11:24.843 --> 00:11:27.124 But yes, I mean I think for the last six years, 275 00:11:27.124 --> 00:11:29.696 I think COVID set us up to be like, 276 00:11:29.210 --> 00:11:32.433 Exactly. Yeah. That was the beginning. 277 00:11:29.696 --> 00:11:33.288 whoa, we're isolated, we're all communicating through screens. 278 00:11:32.433 --> 00:11:33.850 Yeah. 279 00:11:33.889 --> 00:11:37.640 And then we get through that, and then AI is here. 280 00:11:37.640 --> 00:11:44.605 And the the timing is I think compounding the impact. 281 00:11:44.605 --> 00:11:50.848 And I I think it's pretty universal that I'm hearing from from people 282 00:11:50.848 --> 00:11:52.019 of many ages, like 283 00:11:52.169 --> 00:11:57.481 I need to be in real life with real humans and nature as much as I 284 00:11:55.113 --> 00:11:57.381 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 285 00:11:57.481 --> 00:12:01.783 need to be, you know, on these screens and in these in these tasks and 286 00:12:01.765 --> 00:12:02.784 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 287 00:12:02.904 --> 00:12:05.135 and having these relationships, 288 00:12:05.135 --> 00:12:10.756 you know, and these conversations around thinking with artificial intelligence is, 289 00:12:10.756 --> 00:12:13.387 you know, something we don't talk a lot about. 290 00:12:13.387 --> 00:12:18.069 But what is that doing to our own cognitive you know, 291 00:12:16.064 --> 00:12:18.353 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 292 00:12:18.569 --> 00:12:20.020 st anything? 293 00:12:20.170 --> 00:12:21.471 Yeah, no, I I I agree. I think that 294 00:12:20.576 --> 00:12:21.576 We talk yeah. 295 00:12:21.621 --> 00:12:24.613 yeah. I I I think that I'm a big believer that, 296 00:12:24.613 --> 00:12:28.335 you know, the journey is the thing usually and the outcome is kind 297 00:12:27.392 --> 00:12:29.651 Yeah. Yeah. 298 00:12:28.335 --> 00:12:29.736 of secondary and and 299 00:12:29.736 --> 00:12:33.758 we're at risk of like cutting the journey out of a lot of things and skipping 300 00:12:33.758 --> 00:12:34.949 to the end of the novel. You know, 301 00:12:34.949 --> 00:12:38.251 like what's the you know, I'm skipping the first seven chapters of this book. 302 00:12:38.251 --> 00:12:40.482 I want to get to the eighth chapter and just be done. 303 00:12:40.482 --> 00:12:42.544 Like there there's a risk of that for sure. 304 00:12:42.544 --> 00:12:45.516 I think that there the there it's it's like anything else. 305 00:12:45.516 --> 00:12:46.516 Like 306 00:12:46.196 --> 00:12:49.158 I think you have to have the right diet as it comes to this stuff and 307 00:12:49.158 --> 00:12:50.428 you have to figure out how to, 308 00:12:50.428 --> 00:12:55.180 you know, eat your vegetables and also still enjoy dessert and not just feast on, 309 00:12:55.180 --> 00:12:58.052 you know, Twinkies and ho ho's for the rest of your life. 310 00:12:58.052 --> 00:12:59.052 Like I 311 00:12:58.501 --> 00:12:59.501 Yes. 312 00:12:58.822 --> 00:13:00.944 think, you know, like AI could do a lot. 313 00:13:00.944 --> 00:13:04.075 Like like there's there's it's a slippery slope into how many different ways 314 00:13:04.075 --> 00:13:05.636 you can use tools and you can, 315 00:13:05.636 --> 00:13:08.919 you know, enable things. I think that there's I think the people that 316 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:12.751 are that are better at it are actually pretty good at curating. 317 00:13:12.901 --> 00:13:16.124 Not to overuse the term, but they're curating like this tool for that, 318 00:13:16.124 --> 00:13:18.236 not for this, this tool in this way, 319 00:13:18.236 --> 00:13:21.459 not in that way. Scale that, but hold on to this. 320 00:13:21.459 --> 00:13:25.462 Like I need to like I was just who was I just talking to that was talking about? 321 00:13:25.612 --> 00:13:27.653 Somebody I was talking to was saying that like they had gotten into 322 00:13:27.653 --> 00:13:32.595 the habit of letting their ChatGPT buddy do a lot of email writing for them. 323 00:13:32.595 --> 00:13:36.786 And now they decided to go on like a a hiatus and write all their 324 00:13:36.786 --> 00:13:40.158 own emails again for the next couple of months because they were like getting 325 00:13:40.158 --> 00:13:43.548 out of the habit of like being able to write thoughtful emails and they needed 326 00:13:43.548 --> 00:13:47.539 to kind of like pace themselves and and you know go back to the gym and 327 00:13:47.539 --> 00:13:49.320 get in there and write emails again and 328 00:13:49.470 --> 00:13:51.032 you know, get develop that skill again. 329 00:13:51.032 --> 00:13:52.032 And then maybe they'll go back 330 00:13:51.491 --> 00:13:52.491 Yeah. 331 00:13:51.872 --> 00:13:53.224 to working with something again. 332 00:13:53.224 --> 00:13:56.877 Maybe they won't, but I think that's like there's like a mindfulness that 333 00:13:56.877 --> 00:14:02.162 I think is helpful to resist the slip slippery slope of this winding up 334 00:14:02.162 --> 00:14:05.966 in too many aspects of your work or too many aspects of your personality. 335 00:14:05.966 --> 00:14:10.340 Like this can really take over like whole parts of your identity if you 336 00:14:10.820 --> 00:14:12.742 are all gas and no brakes, you know? 337 00:14:12.892 --> 00:14:18.315 Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think we we're at a stage 338 00:14:18.315 --> 00:14:23.958 in our own professional development and life and wisdom and failures that we've 339 00:14:23.958 --> 00:14:27.909 experienced along the way to know when that's that that's a risk and to spot 340 00:14:27.909 --> 00:14:32.261 it when it starts to happen. But I do worry about people who don't know what what 341 00:14:32.261 --> 00:14:36.533 the alternative is. Like what is it to have a real voice in email? 342 00:14:36.533 --> 00:14:39.195 What what is it to write 343 00:14:39.345 --> 00:14:43.270 in a way that you know is your own your own voice if you're n if you're 344 00:14:40.527 --> 00:14:43.210 Yeah, that's a point. Yep. Yep. 345 00:14:43.270 --> 00:14:46.859 never developing that first. So all the people coming up now and 346 00:14:46.859 --> 00:14:48.717 coming through the schools and stuff, 347 00:14:48.717 --> 00:14:52.781 you know, I just hope that they learn to appreciate what that is so that they know 348 00:14:52.781 --> 00:14:53.943 what to compare it against. 349 00:14:54.093 --> 00:14:56.113 Tal and I think you're I think that that's really a great point. 350 00:14:56.113 --> 00:14:57.914 I think that, you know, you spent, 351 00:14:57.914 --> 00:15:02.415 you know, twenty years of your professional career figuring out what your voice 352 00:15:02.415 --> 00:15:06.736 was and how you sound and how you sound in an email and how you sound 353 00:15:06.736 --> 00:15:08.557 in person and and the just, you know, 354 00:15:08.557 --> 00:15:11.017 generally I developing your identity. 355 00:15:11.017 --> 00:15:12.017 You know, we all 356 00:15:11.521 --> 00:15:12.521 Yeah. 357 00:15:11.967 --> 00:15:15.958 like we all like sharpened our knives on Twitter where we had to have like 358 00:15:16.198 --> 00:15:19.198 an identity in so many few characters or less. 359 00:15:19.198 --> 00:15:22.029 And I think we kind of like hyper identified. 360 00:15:22.179 --> 00:15:26.032 in those days of social media and had to kind of like have a voice that stood 361 00:15:26.032 --> 00:15:28.242 out and and build an identity. 362 00:15:28.242 --> 00:15:29.383 And then now 363 00:15:28.809 --> 00:15:29.809 Yeah. 364 00:15:29.563 --> 00:15:32.755 like we're the I'm, you know, I'm the beneficiaries of I'm the beneficiary 365 00:15:32.755 --> 00:15:37.498 of having 30 years talking like the way I talk and honing that to an identity. 366 00:15:37.498 --> 00:15:41.070 You're right. There is like there's a risk if you don't if you're not forced 367 00:15:41.070 --> 00:15:42.671 to kind of go through that process, 368 00:15:42.671 --> 00:15:44.862 you can cheat code to an identity. 369 00:15:44.862 --> 00:15:49.104 but it's fascinating. Like I have so my kids are twenty one, 370 00:15:49.104 --> 00:15:50.335 eighteen, and fifteen. 371 00:15:50.485 --> 00:15:52.766 Yeah, talk about what's going on in their worlds. 372 00:15:50.968 --> 00:15:52.959 And yeah, yeah, 373 00:15:52.959 --> 00:15:56.009 yeah. I mean, it's so Nina, the youngest, 374 00:15:56.009 --> 00:16:02.061 she's very like AI averse. Like when it comes to AI and ads or AI, 375 00:16:02.061 --> 00:16:05.332 like she's like, she's constantly trying to spot it because it makes 376 00:16:05.332 --> 00:16:09.233 her cranky and she doesn't want it and she's very resistant to it. 377 00:16:09.233 --> 00:16:13.124 At the same time, she's also like there's something about that generation that 378 00:16:13.124 --> 00:16:16.965 is kind of refreshingly anti social media polish. 379 00:16:16.965 --> 00:16:18.346 Like they're like. 380 00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:22.382 The fact that I ever used an Instagram filter sends chills down her spine. 381 00:16:22.382 --> 00:16:25.544 Like that is the grossest thing ever imaginable. 382 00:16:24.303 --> 00:16:25.391 That's cringe, Joe. 383 00:16:25.544 --> 00:16:26.544 so cringe. 384 00:16:26.515 --> 00:16:30.087 And like cropping a photo and like all of that is so gross. 385 00:16:30.087 --> 00:16:34.880 you know, she got a digital camera for her birthday that takes crappy pictures 386 00:16:34.880 --> 00:16:37.441 and she loves it. Like, ooh, it's a like Gwen's like trying 387 00:16:37.441 --> 00:16:39.452 to take homecoming pictures with this digital camera, 388 00:16:39.452 --> 00:16:40.530 and she's like, I can't. I was like, 389 00:16:40.530 --> 00:16:41.644 that's why we stopped making them. 390 00:16:41.644 --> 00:16:44.935 But anyway, so there is like this inherent like 391 00:16:45.085 --> 00:16:49.327 anti-inauthenticity instinct that I see in her, 392 00:16:49.327 --> 00:16:53.329 more mostly her. Nina's the most like creative and artistic of 393 00:16:53.329 --> 00:16:55.620 the three Ronaldi kids. I think the boys would agree with that. 394 00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:59.883 so I think she really is trying to develop her identity and she's really trying 395 00:16:59.728 --> 00:17:00.728 Yeah. 396 00:16:59.883 --> 00:17:00.883 to develop 397 00:17:00.213 --> 00:17:02.885 her voice and she feels strongly about that. 398 00:17:02.885 --> 00:17:04.615 And then on the other end of the spectrum, 399 00:17:04.615 --> 00:17:07.637 Jack is about to graduate from Northeastern and 400 00:17:07.070 --> 00:17:08.070 Yeah. 401 00:17:08.157 --> 00:17:09.478 you know he's like they 402 00:17:09.722 --> 00:17:11.413 gave all of them free Claude accounts. 403 00:17:11.413 --> 00:17:15.437 Like he's got a free Claude account that the school pays for that's that they're 404 00:17:15.437 --> 00:17:18.519 expected to use in certain areas. 405 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.262 He has a he has one class that is his least favorite class that he's 406 00:17:22.262 --> 00:17:24.484 not allowed to bring even a laptop into. 407 00:17:24.484 --> 00:17:27.776 Like you take notes. Like you're the the the professor 408 00:17:27.078 --> 00:17:28.078 Old school. 409 00:17:27.776 --> 00:17:31.670 is very rigid about this. And in ja and it's like the most it's already 410 00:17:31.670 --> 00:17:35.383 the most boring class he has. And now he's like fighting to pay attention, 411 00:17:35.383 --> 00:17:37.104 to struggle to pay attention to this guy. 412 00:17:37.575 --> 00:17:41.615 But he's also, you know, on the precipice of graduating and job hunting. 413 00:17:41.615 --> 00:17:47.519 And, you know, he's he's recognized that being good at using these tools is 414 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.000 a way to stand out in the job market. 415 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:51.562 It's what employers 416 00:17:50.662 --> 00:17:51.662 Yes. 417 00:17:51.562 --> 00:17:53.583 are employers are looking for fluency, 418 00:17:53.583 --> 00:17:55.313 you know, working with this stuff. 419 00:17:55.313 --> 00:17:58.235 And they're looking for that kind of acumen walking in the door. 420 00:17:58.235 --> 00:17:59.935 And, you know, he's an animal. 421 00:17:59.935 --> 00:18:02.537 He is like so, so driven. 422 00:18:02.687 --> 00:18:06.029 You know, he's teaching himself and forcing himself to be good at these things 423 00:18:06.029 --> 00:18:08.361 so that it can, you know, augment what he's doing. 424 00:18:08.361 --> 00:18:10.002 And, you know, he wants to whatever, 425 00:18:10.002 --> 00:18:13.235 go get a job at Accenture or McKinsey or something and what you know, 426 00:18:13.235 --> 00:18:17.437 use these tools. It that that's like figuring out how to do that 427 00:18:18.758 --> 00:18:22.310 in entry level jobs is you know, 428 00:18:22.310 --> 00:18:24.072 preoccupying everything about this kid. 429 00:18:24.072 --> 00:18:26.743 When he's not when he's not EDM DJing, 430 00:18:26.743 --> 00:18:28.705 which is the other thing this maniac does, 431 00:18:28.705 --> 00:18:30.516 he's busy. 432 00:18:30.736 --> 00:18:32.778 Like trying to figure out how to, 433 00:18:32.778 --> 00:18:35.400 you know, use all these tools and and and get a new job. 434 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.381 So yeah, it it's it's it's it it's I wonder a lot, 435 00:18:38.381 --> 00:18:39.812 worry a lot. Like I think that we, 436 00:18:39.812 --> 00:18:46.477 you and I are of an age where all the AI stuff I were I'll speak for myself, 437 00:18:46.477 --> 00:18:51.942 all the AI stuff I work with makes me feel like I have such mastery over 438 00:18:52.092 --> 00:18:57.827 so many pedantic things. Like I I feel so quantum in my capability because I have 439 00:18:57.977 --> 00:19:00.189 30 years of like work experience, 440 00:19:00.189 --> 00:19:02.441 and then these tools all arrive at this moment. 441 00:19:02.441 --> 00:19:06.083 I'm like, holy crap, like I can take like 30 years of stuff I know and I 442 00:19:06.083 --> 00:19:09.386 can push it through ChatGPT and I can do this and I can do that and I 443 00:19:09.386 --> 00:19:10.697 can do all these amazing things. 444 00:19:10.697 --> 00:19:14.110 But it's like arriving at this moment where I have 30 years of experience 445 00:19:14.330 --> 00:19:15.731 and now I have all these tools. 446 00:19:15.731 --> 00:19:18.182 To your point about like the journey and all that, 447 00:19:18.182 --> 00:19:21.765 like if if you have one year of experience and you have all these tools, 448 00:19:21.765 --> 00:19:23.216 you know, does it give you beer muscles? 449 00:19:23.216 --> 00:19:24.216 Does it give you like 450 00:19:24.267 --> 00:19:26.419 you know, empty calories? Like what is it it does? 451 00:19:26.419 --> 00:19:30.854 Do you have to figure out a way to like how how do you go from zero 452 00:19:30.854 --> 00:19:34.467 to mastery and then use your mastery with these tools to 453 00:19:34.467 --> 00:19:36.419 get really masterful results out of it? 454 00:19:36.419 --> 00:19:39.582 Like that's the part that is being figured out the hard way right now, 455 00:19:39.582 --> 00:19:40.582 I feel like. 456 00:19:40.213 --> 00:19:41.894 Yeah, I mean I I think, you know, 457 00:19:41.894 --> 00:19:44.275 AI's like it's like, you know, 458 00:19:44.275 --> 00:19:49.148 picture those Swiss Army knives that have every different kind of attachment, 459 00:19:49.148 --> 00:19:51.219 the really big ones. Like I always 460 00:19:49.728 --> 00:19:51.005 Yeah. Yeah. 461 00:19:51.219 --> 00:19:53.090 wanted one of those when I was a little kid and 462 00:19:53.066 --> 00:19:54.066 Yeah yeah yeah yeah. 463 00:19:53.883 --> 00:19:57.753 I I'm sure I I never got one because they were too expensive, 464 00:19:57.753 --> 00:20:00.734 but they were also probably weighed like twenty pounds and you're like carting 465 00:20:00.734 --> 00:20:04.236 it around. Yeah. 466 00:20:00.916 --> 00:20:03.425 I have one and it weighs it weighs a ton. 467 00:20:03.425 --> 00:20:04.701 Yeah. Yeah. 468 00:20:04.236 --> 00:20:05.236 So but 469 00:20:04.786 --> 00:20:07.437 that's that's kind of how I look at AI. 470 00:20:07.437 --> 00:20:08.528 it's 471 00:20:08.678 --> 00:20:12.700 It's a ton of tools to solve solve problems, 472 00:20:12.700 --> 00:20:17.052 right? The problems are not it's not solving the the actual problem 473 00:20:17.052 --> 00:20:18.383 to the point where the problem goes away. 474 00:20:18.383 --> 00:20:22.475 It's giving us tools to address problems and challenges and things. 475 00:20:22.475 --> 00:20:23.856 Different kind in different ways, 476 00:20:23.856 --> 00:20:25.337 right? Efficiencies or 477 00:20:25.487 --> 00:20:30.330 exposure or strategic thinking or tactics or whatever it might be. 478 00:20:30.330 --> 00:20:33.121 You know, you're building software to solve problems instead of trying 479 00:20:33.121 --> 00:20:36.283 to find a piece of software that will solve your problem amongst 480 00:20:35.922 --> 00:20:36.922 Yeah, yeah. 481 00:20:36.283 --> 00:20:37.974 many others that you don't need solved. 482 00:20:37.974 --> 00:20:39.234 So 483 00:20:38.621 --> 00:20:39.621 Mm-hmm. 484 00:20:39.234 --> 00:20:44.137 a lot is getting inversed, but I think you still have to know which tool 485 00:20:44.137 --> 00:20:47.899 to to pull out of the Swiss Army knife and how to apply it. 486 00:20:47.899 --> 00:20:51.891 And that's where the the skills of learning 487 00:20:52.041 --> 00:20:55.025 how to use these tools, that's where this the you know, 488 00:20:55.025 --> 00:20:56.736 the human still has to kind of put in the reps. 489 00:20:56.736 --> 00:21:01.772 because there are a lot of pointless ways to use these tools where nothing 490 00:21:01.772 --> 00:21:03.273 is really accomplished, you know. 491 00:21:01.793 --> 00:21:05.114 yeah. A hundred percent. I agree entirely. 492 00:21:03.273 --> 00:21:07.987 Although it can give it can give the appearance it can give the appearance 493 00:21:05.114 --> 00:21:08.606 There's a there's a hundred per also true. 494 00:21:07.987 --> 00:21:09.619 of good things happening. 495 00:21:08.606 --> 00:21:09.606 Yep. 496 00:21:09.769 --> 00:21:14.602 Yep. You can you can have a lot of wasted empty calorie progress that once 497 00:21:14.086 --> 00:21:15.086 Yes. 498 00:21:14.602 --> 00:21:17.243 the dust settles, like there's actually not a lot of there there. 499 00:21:17.243 --> 00:21:20.434 Like it looks like there's a lot there and you've done a lot, 500 00:21:20.434 --> 00:21:22.725 but then really when you audit what you did, 501 00:21:22.725 --> 00:21:24.840 it's like this is this really didn't, 502 00:21:24.840 --> 00:21:29.222 you know, whatever. There, there's just mileage varies based on how you're using it. 503 00:21:29.372 --> 00:21:34.046 And I think part of it is developing the skill set to know when to use it, 504 00:21:34.046 --> 00:21:35.708 how to use it, how much to use, 505 00:21:35.708 --> 00:21:40.323 you know, when not to use it, how to basically like making it a a tool 506 00:21:40.383 --> 00:21:44.507 in your toolkit, not just some kind of like red button you smash every once 507 00:21:44.507 --> 00:21:48.040 in a while. Like AI that like there needs to be a little bit more 508 00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:48.180 Yeah, and I 509 00:21:48.040 --> 00:21:49.040 dexterity. 510 00:21:48.831 --> 00:21:54.995 I think part of the other problem with AI is that its speed its speed 511 00:21:54.995 --> 00:21:57.266 and its power combined, right, 512 00:21:57.266 --> 00:21:59.699 is a is something we've never experienced before. 513 00:21:59.699 --> 00:22:04.772 So normally you know, big things would happen because maybe software would come 514 00:22:04.772 --> 00:22:07.024 around. I'm thinking about Photoshop and all of a sudden 515 00:22:07.054 --> 00:22:08.054 Mm. 516 00:22:07.445 --> 00:22:08.796 it's easy it's easier to work 517 00:22:08.946 --> 00:22:12.649 on editing your photos on in software than in the dark room. 518 00:22:12.649 --> 00:22:18.203 that's because the tool was able to solve the problem faster 519 00:22:18.353 --> 00:22:21.816 and more powerfully than the ways of doing it prior. 520 00:22:20.211 --> 00:22:22.496 Yeah. Yes. 521 00:22:23.437 --> 00:22:29.281 Now we've got tools that can understand and solve the problems incredibly fast 522 00:22:29.431 --> 00:22:33.643 at wherever we point them, which which doesn't really give us enough time 523 00:22:33.643 --> 00:22:34.784 to absorb what's happening. 524 00:22:34.934 --> 00:22:37.876 If we if we try to kind of keep up with the pace, 525 00:22:37.511 --> 00:22:38.511 Mm-hmm. 526 00:22:38.597 --> 00:22:45.063 I think what I'm finding is it's too tempting for people to skim over like 527 00:22:45.263 --> 00:22:46.764 the work that's getting done. 528 00:22:47.122 --> 00:22:48.122 Yeah. 529 00:22:47.853 --> 00:22:52.619 And like you said earlier, like focus on the end result without digesting 530 00:22:52.059 --> 00:22:55.565 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 531 00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:55.532 any of the nutrition of the yeah, 532 00:22:55.532 --> 00:22:56.532 the 533 00:22:55.732 --> 00:22:58.935 junk food is is a good one, 534 00:22:58.935 --> 00:22:59.935 a good comparison. 535 00:22:59.357 --> 00:23:00.357 Yeah, I'm I'm 536 00:23:00.238 --> 00:23:02.287 I'm thinking about, I think that makes a ton of sense. 537 00:23:02.287 --> 00:23:06.621 And I'm thinking about the the examples of ways I use these tools. 538 00:23:06.621 --> 00:23:11.094 What it tends to do is make me better at things I'm already really good at. 539 00:23:11.094 --> 00:23:15.407 I think the I think the the there's another way to use it where it falsely makes 540 00:23:15.407 --> 00:23:17.409 you appear better than you are at a thing. 541 00:23:17.409 --> 00:23:21.121 And that gets sniffed out pretty quickly, 542 00:23:21.121 --> 00:23:22.702 and you're basically just like. 543 00:23:22.852 --> 00:23:25.873 taking a knife to a gunfight without realizing it because you've used 544 00:23:25.873 --> 00:23:32.506 AI to like prop you up into a space or a conversation or or some outcome that 545 00:23:32.506 --> 00:23:34.807 you really don't know enough about and you're unprepared for. 546 00:23:34.471 --> 00:23:35.608 Yeah. Yeah. 547 00:23:34.807 --> 00:23:35.807 Like I I don't tend 548 00:23:35.727 --> 00:23:39.469 to use it for that. I don't tend to have it like to stand on AI's shoulders 549 00:23:39.569 --> 00:23:43.331 and have it take me to places I haven't earned to be. 550 00:23:43.331 --> 00:23:46.562 What I do use it for is like, I'm really good at doing this already. 551 00:23:46.562 --> 00:23:50.353 Can you make this faster and do it the way I like to do it. 552 00:23:50.557 --> 00:23:53.988 And then help me get more work done the way I like to get work done 553 00:23:53.988 --> 00:23:56.309 to the standards I know are important. 554 00:23:56.309 --> 00:23:59.627 Because I I think that the this is something that Anthony Calangelo, 555 00:23:59.627 --> 00:24:01.571 who I work with, says a lot, and I agree with this a ton. 556 00:24:01.571 --> 00:24:04.161 and I think it's it's kind of what you're saying. 557 00:24:04.161 --> 00:24:07.413 In a way, like, taste becomes your superpower. 558 00:24:07.413 --> 00:24:12.226 Like, taste and standards and point of view and all that really becomes kind 559 00:24:12.226 --> 00:24:14.687 of your perfect superpower and 560 00:24:14.837 --> 00:24:16.778 That's how you're able to determine, 561 00:24:16.778 --> 00:24:18.750 like, this thing that AI made is crap. 562 00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:20.392 This thing that AI made is good. 563 00:24:20.392 --> 00:24:21.863 This thing that AI made is okay, 564 00:24:21.863 --> 00:24:23.294 but I need to add something to it, 565 00:24:23.294 --> 00:24:25.496 like it's not good enough, or it's just slightly 566 00:24:24.268 --> 00:24:25.309 Yeah. Yeah. 567 00:24:25.496 --> 00:24:29.968 off target. Like you have to have taste and experience and all these things 568 00:24:29.968 --> 00:24:33.342 to be able to direct this stuff effectively. 569 00:24:33.342 --> 00:24:37.695 Otherwise, you become kind of in the backseat and something without taste 570 00:24:37.695 --> 00:24:39.266 is driving you forward. You know, 571 00:24:39.266 --> 00:24:41.178 something without a point of view is driving you forward. 572 00:24:41.328 --> 00:24:42.750 Right, but let me ask you this. 573 00:24:42.750 --> 00:24:47.022 Do you think that's gonna be the case for the next like for do you think 574 00:24:47.022 --> 00:24:48.429 AI will eventually 575 00:24:48.579 --> 00:24:52.036 be able to develop something that rivals that. 576 00:24:52.186 --> 00:24:54.247 I I think it's possible, for sure. 577 00:24:54.247 --> 00:24:56.187 I think that there is a there the you know, 578 00:24:56.187 --> 00:24:59.098 the the tools haven't gotten dumber in the last 18 months. 579 00:24:59.098 --> 00:25:02.578 Like they're they're getting better at a variety of things. 580 00:25:02.578 --> 00:25:05.830 I do think that there's something to be said for, 581 00:25:05.830 --> 00:25:10.821 you know, there is like an imperfectness to taste that I think these tools struggle 582 00:25:10.821 --> 00:25:13.531 to identify or struggle to reproduce. 583 00:25:13.531 --> 00:25:15.572 I think it's our imperfection in some ways. 584 00:25:15.722 --> 00:25:18.403 And the rough edges and the shaggy parts that, 585 00:25:18.403 --> 00:25:22.055 you know identify to somebody that this person has a point of view 586 00:25:22.055 --> 00:25:25.366 and they have their own kind of taste and I think there's a vibe, 587 00:25:25.366 --> 00:25:27.147 you know, that I can perceive with this. 588 00:25:27.147 --> 00:25:30.958 I think I Yeah. 589 00:25:27.708 --> 00:25:30.359 Yeah, yeah. I I totally I agree. 590 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:31.359 And yet 591 00:25:31.230 --> 00:25:35.293 I just wonder if the AI is gonna get good enough to to 592 00:25:33.629 --> 00:25:34.990 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 593 00:25:35.434 --> 00:25:39.127 be able to simulate that and s simulate that in some sort of way where 594 00:25:39.127 --> 00:25:42.218 it becomes indistinguishable, which would be t that'll be scary, 595 00:25:42.218 --> 00:25:44.209 right? I mean, that would be a scary moment. 596 00:25:42.824 --> 00:25:44.325 I think I think you're absolutely right. 597 00:25:44.475 --> 00:25:47.236 I think like in that world, let's let's let's play that game. 598 00:25:47.236 --> 00:25:48.407 Let's in that world where 599 00:25:47.762 --> 00:25:48.762 Okay. 600 00:25:48.557 --> 00:25:53.839 there is a decreased ability for AI outputs to feel like idiosyncratic 601 00:25:53.959 --> 00:25:56.200 and having a sense of taste and all those things. 602 00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:00.942 I think again it comes back to like that increases the value of there being 603 00:26:02.123 --> 00:26:06.044 IRL equity baked into certain things so that like 604 00:26:06.194 --> 00:26:09.275 Okay, this AI is making things that feel like they have a point of view 605 00:26:09.275 --> 00:26:11.575 and they feel like they have taste and all of that. 606 00:26:11.575 --> 00:26:13.176 Like, how does that compete with Tracey, 607 00:26:13.176 --> 00:26:15.536 who I know personally? Like part of the is gonna be, 608 00:26:15.536 --> 00:26:19.137 you know, getting to know people personally and valuing people individually. 609 00:26:19.137 --> 00:26:23.448 And, you know, maybe there's more people going to Broadway shows than to the movies, 610 00:26:23.448 --> 00:26:27.129 you know, like maybe there's more live performance than there is recorded. 611 00:26:27.129 --> 00:26:28.129 Maybe there is I I think 612 00:26:27.635 --> 00:26:28.635 Yeah. 613 00:26:28.089 --> 00:26:30.910 that that stuff kind of is along that trend line, 614 00:26:30.910 --> 00:26:33.361 you know? So this AI has like 615 00:26:32.372 --> 00:26:33.372 So along that 616 00:26:33.361 --> 00:26:34.361 a yeah. 617 00:26:34.181 --> 00:26:35.642 but along that trend line then, 618 00:26:35.642 --> 00:26:40.456 let let's just jump right to the the why is everyone freaking out about jobs, 619 00:26:40.456 --> 00:26:44.019 including the people that are inside these AI organizations who 620 00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:47.772 are also freaking out about just how good they're get how powerful these things 621 00:26:47.772 --> 00:26:49.554 are getting. Like what what's your take on that? 622 00:26:49.704 --> 00:26:52.166 I so I heard I wish I could like really, 623 00:26:52.166 --> 00:26:53.516 really properly attribute this. 624 00:26:53.516 --> 00:26:55.448 If I can find the speaker's name. 625 00:26:55.448 --> 00:26:58.780 Shoot, I just traded an email with I'm gonna drop a name. 626 00:26:58.780 --> 00:27:01.091 I was just trading an email with Josh Clark about this. 627 00:27:01.091 --> 00:27:03.107 He's such a big shot. all right, 628 00:27:03.107 --> 00:27:04.954 there's a speaker named Michael Reynolds, 629 00:27:04.954 --> 00:27:07.486 and he recently spoke, and I wasn't even there, 630 00:27:07.486 --> 00:27:09.837 this was all relayed to me, but he's an economist, 631 00:27:09.837 --> 00:27:12.092 and he was talking about how. 632 00:27:12.498 --> 00:27:16.992 He doesn't feel he doesn't have any fear that AI is gonna dramatically impact 633 00:27:16.992 --> 00:27:22.456 the job market 20, 30 years into the future because COVID 634 00:27:23.297 --> 00:27:28.350 and the United States' obnoxious immigration policies and a variety 635 00:27:28.350 --> 00:27:32.785 of things are reducing the size of the workforce so dramatically that there could 636 00:27:32.785 --> 00:27:36.077 be fewer people looking for jobs in 10 and 20, 637 00:27:36.077 --> 00:27:38.738 30 years than there were 10 and 20 years ago. 638 00:27:38.918 --> 00:27:43.281 Like the the amount of like employable people is just gonna s shrink 639 00:27:43.301 --> 00:27:46.113 as a pool because of more people not having kids. 640 00:27:46.113 --> 00:27:50.056 Again, this, you know, we're not we have we have a horrible immigration policy, 641 00:27:50.056 --> 00:27:51.377 doesn't let people into the country. 642 00:27:52.013 --> 00:27:53.013 Yeah. 643 00:27:52.425 --> 00:27:56.038 COVID had this kind of disruptive effect on the economy and the 644 00:27:56.038 --> 00:27:58.580 way that people handle work and think about work. 645 00:27:58.580 --> 00:28:03.114 And there may be kind of like a weirdly balancing thing that happens that. 646 00:28:03.264 --> 00:28:06.376 AI allows people to scale what they're able to do in jobs, 647 00:28:06.376 --> 00:28:11.459 but there are fewer people to be kind of the the the the liver puller kind 648 00:28:11.459 --> 00:28:12.950 of person that's using AI tools. 649 00:28:12.950 --> 00:28:15.972 So could those things help balance each other out a little bit? 650 00:28:15.972 --> 00:28:19.273 Like I take a little solace from that that just there's like a there's like 651 00:28:19.273 --> 00:28:23.535 an actuarial table that says if the number of employable people goes down, 652 00:28:23.535 --> 00:28:25.886 you're gonna need AI tools 653 00:28:24.100 --> 00:28:25.827 Yeah. That's interesting. 654 00:28:25.886 --> 00:28:28.807 to to let fewer people do the work that needs to get done. 655 00:28:29.175 --> 00:28:30.175 I like 656 00:28:29.547 --> 00:28:31.256 that. I mean I I also just think 657 00:28:30.473 --> 00:28:31.473 It feels a little 658 00:28:31.406 --> 00:28:34.739 too coincidental and a little too like isn't that convenient at in some way, 659 00:28:34.739 --> 00:28:35.739 but I think there's something there. 660 00:28:35.823 --> 00:28:37.964 Because I think people like to have something to do. 661 00:28:37.964 --> 00:28:42.437 even if, you know, like we we need stuff to 662 00:28:39.605 --> 00:28:42.346 sure. Yeah. 663 00:28:42.437 --> 00:28:47.039 do. I do not look forward to a to a civilization where everyone is just 664 00:28:47.189 --> 00:28:51.851 has idle time, right? Like I think have having a sense of purpose I 665 00:28:47.546 --> 00:28:52.356 Yeah. Yeah. I think yes. Yeah. 666 00:28:51.851 --> 00:28:52.851 do think is something 667 00:28:52.622 --> 00:28:56.593 we are gonna continue to need as a as a species. 668 00:28:55.578 --> 00:28:57.806 Yeah. No. 669 00:28:56.593 --> 00:28:57.924 But so 670 00:28:57.924 --> 00:29:02.076 that's good to know that there will be plenty of jobs because there aren't enough 671 00:29:02.076 --> 00:29:03.076 people. 672 00:29:02.626 --> 00:29:04.749 But but I also think that you know, 673 00:29:04.749 --> 00:29:06.732 when people raise this alarm, I'm like, 674 00:29:06.732 --> 00:29:08.960 Yeah, but w who really is gonna I mean, 675 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:13.162 we'll find stuff to do. Like we if even if the jobs that we know today go away, 676 00:29:13.162 --> 00:29:14.294 we'll we'll do other find 677 00:29:13.979 --> 00:29:14.979 Yeah. 678 00:29:14.294 --> 00:29:15.294 other things to do. 679 00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:18.589 I mean, you have a job today that didn't exist when you were an undergrad. 680 00:29:18.739 --> 00:29:19.739 Yeah. 681 00:29:19.165 --> 00:29:22.866 Like this whole industry of the internet didn't exist when you were in high school. 682 00:29:22.866 --> 00:29:27.256 And you're you're living in a future that 17 year old Tracey could have never 683 00:29:27.256 --> 00:29:29.607 imagined. Like that that nothing like that doesn't change. 684 00:29:28.236 --> 00:29:29.687 Yeah, no totally. 685 00:29:29.607 --> 00:29:30.607 Like 686 00:29:29.787 --> 00:29:31.527 that's that's the world we're gonna live in. 687 00:29:31.527 --> 00:29:34.477 I think that shoot, you said something that made me think of some 688 00:29:34.627 --> 00:29:38.230 the other thing is this. I think that you and I are 689 00:29:38.668 --> 00:29:42.710 Of an industry that is a little bit more AI-pilled because of 690 00:29:43.071 --> 00:29:45.622 our proximity to technology. You know, 691 00:29:45.622 --> 00:29:49.085 like you work in technology, 692 00:29:49.085 --> 00:29:53.017 I work in technology. When you turn around and look at like the 693 00:29:53.167 --> 00:29:56.810 19 normy people behind you that don't work in technology, 694 00:29:56.810 --> 00:29:58.911 like they're not in love with this stuff. 695 00:29:58.911 --> 00:30:00.492 Like they're not, they're not trying, 696 00:30:00.492 --> 00:30:02.363 they're not trying to use AI. Like, 697 00:30:02.363 --> 00:30:04.775 like it's it's kind of shocking when you get out of like 698 00:30:04.925 --> 00:30:07.677 We in our little industry bubble and we talk to each other 699 00:30:07.677 --> 00:30:10.651 and this person's experimenting with that and this person's playing around with this 700 00:30:10.651 --> 00:30:12.092 and we're all kind of like, you know, 701 00:30:12.092 --> 00:30:15.255 makers or or curious or whatever and doing things. 702 00:30:15.255 --> 00:30:19.408 And then, you know, you turn around and you look at the fifteen people behind you, 703 00:30:19.408 --> 00:30:22.250 you know, some of them are using it who are not in the technology role, 704 00:30:22.250 --> 00:30:25.803 but there's a an amazing amount of people that have like zero interest in this. 705 00:30:25.803 --> 00:30:28.506 Like it it's like, you know, are w is there still gonna be, 706 00:30:28.506 --> 00:30:30.781 you know, is there still gonna be 707 00:30:30.931 --> 00:30:34.564 a software development industry if like anybody can make software whenever they 708 00:30:34.564 --> 00:30:36.504 want. I'm like, people don't want to do that. 709 00:30:36.504 --> 00:30:38.194 Like you assume that people want to do that. 710 00:30:38.194 --> 00:30:41.357 Like you want to do that because you're a technologist and you're 711 00:30:41.357 --> 00:30:42.738 a software designer or whatever. 712 00:30:42.738 --> 00:30:45.240 Like you wanna do that, but most people aren't you. 713 00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:47.031 Most people don't want to like, 714 00:30:47.031 --> 00:30:50.893 ooh, I can make my own bespoke running app on my phone now. 715 00:30:50.893 --> 00:30:51.893 And like, nope. 716 00:30:50.978 --> 00:30:51.978 Right. I mean 717 00:30:51.699 --> 00:30:53.740 we could we could all bake our own bread, 718 00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:57.633 but most of us buy it. Right? Yeah. 719 00:30:54.784 --> 00:30:57.055 Exactly. That's a that's a much more succinct way to say that. 720 00:30:57.055 --> 00:30:58.726 That's very good. Exactly right. 721 00:30:57.633 --> 00:31:00.706 And yeah. 722 00:30:58.726 --> 00:31:00.707 Exactly right. So yeah, I think that that's 723 00:31:00.857 --> 00:31:03.914 yeah, I think we have a s in the industry and we're the ones talking about 724 00:31:03.914 --> 00:31:05.205 it all the time and we're the ones, 725 00:31:05.205 --> 00:31:06.536 you know, working with it a lot. 726 00:31:06.536 --> 00:31:11.549 I think we have a skewed perspective on like how this actually sits with Gen Pop. 727 00:31:10.101 --> 00:31:12.571 Totally. Totally. 728 00:31:11.549 --> 00:31:12.549 And 729 00:31:12.721 --> 00:31:14.262 yeah. And I I'd like and you know, 730 00:31:14.262 --> 00:31:16.143 and like I I made this joke to you before. 731 00:31:16.143 --> 00:31:18.444 Like I am I'm not a trained designer. 732 00:31:18.444 --> 00:31:20.495 I went to SCAD, but that was for illustration. 733 00:31:20.495 --> 00:31:21.686 Like I'm not like a web designer. 734 00:31:21.836 --> 00:31:24.958 and I'm not a developer, like I'm not like a technologist. 735 00:31:24.958 --> 00:31:29.772 I am I am like a bro. I am that's why I've always been good at bizdev. 736 00:31:29.772 --> 00:31:33.795 Like I'm the person who can translate between the agency I work for 737 00:31:33.945 --> 00:31:37.087 and the normal people that want to engage the agency. 738 00:31:35.556 --> 00:31:36.742 Normi normally speak. 739 00:31:37.087 --> 00:31:38.087 Yeah, 740 00:31:37.308 --> 00:31:38.529 the normies. Like, you know, excuse me, 741 00:31:38.529 --> 00:31:40.210 stewardess, I speak normie. Like, 742 00:31:40.210 --> 00:31:44.473 like, like, yeah, that that's always been my my translator role. 743 00:31:44.473 --> 00:31:47.406 and so, like, you know, but but as a normie, 744 00:31:47.406 --> 00:31:49.908 I'm still I I'm more in that like. 745 00:31:50.058 --> 00:31:53.381 excited about using the tools and and experimenting with ways to do it, 746 00:31:53.381 --> 00:31:57.234 but only because I think I spent so much time in the crucible of our industry 747 00:31:57.384 --> 00:32:00.146 and I see how easy it is to make things now. 748 00:32:00.146 --> 00:32:06.191 Like I I'm I'm making things when 10 years ago I couldn't make a damn thing. 749 00:32:06.191 --> 00:32:08.012 You know, five years ago I couldn't make anything. 750 00:32:08.012 --> 00:32:12.265 But now I, you know, I have enough reps where I know how things could get made 751 00:32:12.265 --> 00:32:13.486 and I know what needs to be made. 752 00:32:13.486 --> 00:32:17.559 And now the tools I'm using are the bridge between me having an idea 753 00:32:17.709 --> 00:32:19.680 And this thing executing and shipping, 754 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.179 which is amazing. Like I've really I've been I 755 00:32:22.120 --> 00:32:23.120 It yeah. 756 00:32:23.342 --> 00:32:27.884 I've been on like the eighteen month high of using these different tools 757 00:32:27.884 --> 00:32:31.274 in different ways and and really like and enjoying the hell out of it. 758 00:32:31.274 --> 00:32:32.545 Like, you know, staying 759 00:32:32.115 --> 00:32:33.115 Same. 760 00:32:32.545 --> 00:32:33.996 up late 'cause I'm working on something. 761 00:32:33.996 --> 00:32:36.397 Or, you know, I'm not paying attention to this movie because I have 762 00:32:36.397 --> 00:32:38.568 my laptop cracked open and I'm just having fun, 763 00:32:38.568 --> 00:32:40.319 you know, farting around with something. 764 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.760 Or, you know, I did this on a Saturday morning. 765 00:32:42.760 --> 00:32:43.760 Like I think 766 00:32:43.368 --> 00:32:44.939 There those are good s those are good symptoms. 767 00:32:44.939 --> 00:32:47.721 Like when you're like so excited about working on something that you're kind 768 00:32:47.721 --> 00:32:50.172 of like, you know, doing it in your free time, 769 00:32:50.172 --> 00:32:52.052 I think that's that means it's fun. 770 00:32:52.052 --> 00:32:54.824 So yeah, that that's that's where I've been for the past like year and 771 00:32:54.824 --> 00:32:55.925 a half in that kind of zone. 772 00:32:56.075 --> 00:32:57.846 Yeah, fun is definitely a big part of it. 773 00:32:57.846 --> 00:33:01.767 if you start to feel like your brain is gonna melt out your ears, 774 00:33:01.767 --> 00:33:03.248 like time to close the laptop, 775 00:33:03.248 --> 00:33:04.829 you know, time to like 776 00:33:03.410 --> 00:33:05.275 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 777 00:33:05.425 --> 00:33:08.566 the fun has crossed over into brain damage territory, 778 00:33:08.122 --> 00:33:10.642 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. 779 00:33:08.566 --> 00:33:12.968 right? Brain injury will is eminent. 780 00:33:10.642 --> 00:33:14.275 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 781 00:33:12.968 --> 00:33:14.741 all right. 782 00:33:14.275 --> 00:33:15.275 It's like it's 783 00:33:14.785 --> 00:33:19.407 like it's like the CTE version of like spending too much time on your laptop. 784 00:33:19.407 --> 00:33:20.407 It's like I have like, 785 00:33:19.716 --> 00:33:20.716 Yeah. 786 00:33:20.088 --> 00:33:22.959 you know, I have like concussive symptoms because I've been 787 00:33:22.467 --> 00:33:23.467 Yes. 788 00:33:23.109 --> 00:33:24.570 spending too much time on my laptop. 789 00:33:24.570 --> 00:33:25.570 Yeah. 790 00:33:24.950 --> 00:33:28.623 I mean, I I I feel the same way and now I definitely like I look at the kids 791 00:33:28.623 --> 00:33:30.324 and I'm like, get them off the screens, 792 00:33:30.324 --> 00:33:31.324 you know, but 793 00:33:30.575 --> 00:33:31.575 Right. 794 00:33:31.545 --> 00:33:33.276 they're playing games and stuff, 795 00:33:33.276 --> 00:33:37.509 you know. I'm sitting here like evaluating three different business opportunities 796 00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:40.702 and building three apps and and getting 797 00:33:38.284 --> 00:33:40.555 Yeah. Uh-huh. huh. 798 00:33:40.702 --> 00:33:44.224 updates from my chief of staff agent on things I need to do, 799 00:33:44.224 --> 00:33:45.224 and 800 00:33:44.428 --> 00:33:45.428 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 801 00:33:45.485 --> 00:33:49.108 and then I just have to close it and like go find a book and sit outside. 802 00:33:47.980 --> 00:33:50.932 Yeah. Yeah. I I 803 00:33:51.132 --> 00:33:54.683 I made an app for like tracking movies, 804 00:33:54.683 --> 00:34:00.466 shows, and episodes because there's things for tracking movies like Letterboxd 805 00:34:00.466 --> 00:34:02.487 and there's things for tracking TV series, 806 00:34:02.487 --> 00:34:04.909 but nothing allows you to track movies, 807 00:34:04.909 --> 00:34:07.991 series, and then individual episodes of series. 808 00:34:07.991 --> 00:34:12.514 And Nina and I have like a whole Halloween agenda of things to watch. 809 00:34:12.514 --> 00:34:14.555 We have a whole Christmas agenda of things to watch. 810 00:34:14.705 --> 00:34:21.236 And that includes like the summer ween episode of Gravity Falls is an episode 811 00:34:21.236 --> 00:34:23.397 of a show that we want to make sure we watch during Halloween. 812 00:34:23.397 --> 00:34:25.918 And then we'll also watch Wednesday, 813 00:34:25.918 --> 00:34:30.110 the series. And then we'll also watch the the Kristen Wig Ghostbusters. 814 00:34:30.110 --> 00:34:33.942 So like, but I made an app that allows you to build like these little like watch 815 00:34:33.942 --> 00:34:35.903 lists of those. And it it took me, 816 00:34:35.903 --> 00:34:39.394 you know, three hours while I was watching T V with Nina to build this thing. 817 00:34:39.394 --> 00:34:41.344 it's yeah, it's 818 00:34:41.494 --> 00:34:43.567 And that's, you know, like that's just like a useful thing, 819 00:34:43.567 --> 00:34:46.192 single server kind of, you know, 820 00:34:46.192 --> 00:34:48.416 vanity app that's fun to build. 821 00:34:48.416 --> 00:34:50.349 But yeah. 822 00:34:49.043 --> 00:34:50.405 So fun. Yeah. And 823 00:34:50.405 --> 00:34:52.684 when I think about work, you know, 824 00:34:52.684 --> 00:34:56.226 a lot of the things that I've been doing inside of adeo are building things 825 00:34:56.226 --> 00:34:58.367 so that the team can have more collaboration. 826 00:34:58.367 --> 00:35:00.128 you 827 00:34:58.757 --> 00:35:00.066 Yeah. Yeah. 828 00:35:00.128 --> 00:35:03.599 know, so it's like where's where's a place we can all go into where 829 00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:08.081 we can work together on this one particular creative challenge or 830 00:35:07.776 --> 00:35:08.776 Yeah. 831 00:35:08.232 --> 00:35:13.023 you know, or how can we create some automation around certain things that 832 00:35:13.023 --> 00:35:15.345 we do for like we have one particular client where 833 00:35:15.494 --> 00:35:19.619 It was like it would make sense to build kind of a an intelligence center 834 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:21.222 for this particular 835 00:35:20.137 --> 00:35:21.137 Yeah. Yep. 836 00:35:21.222 --> 00:35:24.434 client, i so that it's just going and running. 837 00:35:24.434 --> 00:35:26.987 And anyway, have to be careful about your 838 00:35:26.491 --> 00:35:27.491 Now we 839 00:35:26.987 --> 00:35:32.213 your your bills, of course, when you create some of these things that yeah. 840 00:35:29.677 --> 00:35:32.773 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That that's that's that's a consideration for sure. 841 00:35:32.773 --> 00:35:33.875 Yeah, I mean we we've 842 00:35:33.956 --> 00:35:35.869 so on the Pine Works side we've been doing the same. 843 00:35:35.869 --> 00:35:39.216 We've been, you know, kind of building Yeah, 844 00:35:36.595 --> 00:35:39.747 Yeah. Yeah, talk talk to me talk to me about what about 845 00:35:39.216 --> 00:35:40.216 yeah, yeah. 846 00:35:39.747 --> 00:35:44.190 Pine Works because I I will just say I've been fascinated by what you guys 847 00:35:44.190 --> 00:35:47.002 are up to ever since I heard Anthony talk about Bruce. 848 00:35:46.383 --> 00:35:49.228 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 849 00:35:47.002 --> 00:35:49.324 So and I'm 850 00:35:49.344 --> 00:35:52.476 I'm impressed and amazed at what you all have done and so I'd love 851 00:35:52.476 --> 00:35:53.476 to hear about that. 852 00:35:53.287 --> 00:35:57.641 Thank you. Yeah. So that that started as like a little internal sandboxy experiment 853 00:35:57.721 --> 00:36:00.343 with OpenClaw and 854 00:35:59.606 --> 00:36:00.606 OpenClaw, right. 855 00:36:00.363 --> 00:36:02.144 and trying to mess around with some agentics stuff. 856 00:36:02.144 --> 00:36:06.408 I mean, really, like there was like a weekend in February where Codex dropped 857 00:36:06.408 --> 00:36:08.189 and the new version of Claw dropped, 858 00:36:08.189 --> 00:36:13.114 and Ryan and Anthony both like disappeared for six days and came back 859 00:36:13.114 --> 00:36:17.407 and they had done like four months worth of work and were just like wholly 860 00:36:17.557 --> 00:36:19.969 transformed in their in their capability. 861 00:36:19.969 --> 00:36:21.530 And then when OpenClaw came out, 862 00:36:21.680 --> 00:36:25.203 We started to mess around. So we we use Discord for yeah, 863 00:36:23.912 --> 00:36:27.545 And and for just just for for the normies listening, 864 00:36:25.203 --> 00:36:27.150 okay. Yeah. 865 00:36:27.545 --> 00:36:31.217 OpenClaw, just just explain explain what that is, 866 00:36:29.043 --> 00:36:33.246 Yes, yes. I mean right. 867 00:36:31.217 --> 00:36:33.347 because I don't think a lot of people might have caught that when 868 00:36:33.347 --> 00:36:34.347 it happened. 869 00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:40.354 So OpenClaw just adds an what's called an agentic layer to using AI tools or using, 870 00:36:40.354 --> 00:36:42.226 you know, your your laptop. You know, 871 00:36:42.226 --> 00:36:45.829 it it basically creates like a a how to best describe this. 872 00:36:45.829 --> 00:36:51.082 It's like a character it creates that can perform work and do tasks that lives 873 00:36:51.082 --> 00:36:55.652 on like a Mac mini typically or lives on some piece of machinery and 874 00:36:55.802 --> 00:36:58.604 You can just prompt it to do things and it will, 875 00:36:58.604 --> 00:37:01.957 on its own, you know, time with its own resources, 876 00:37:01.957 --> 00:37:06.470 complete tasks without your constant direction and supervision and guidance. 877 00:37:06.470 --> 00:37:08.662 So there's a little bit of a slippery slope to this. 878 00:37:08.662 --> 00:37:10.637 It feels a little scary because these things start to be a little 879 00:37:10.637 --> 00:37:13.566 bit more autonomous. And I think that triggers people for sure. 880 00:37:13.566 --> 00:37:18.715 so part of it is, you know, the the hygiene of putting it on 881 00:37:18.715 --> 00:37:21.298 a server somewhere and and it, 882 00:37:21.298 --> 00:37:22.298 you know. 883 00:37:21.688 --> 00:37:25.641 Curating its access to things and and really kind of putting infrastructure 884 00:37:25.641 --> 00:37:27.973 in place so that's stable and safe and secure. 885 00:37:27.973 --> 00:37:31.286 That that's a big part of it. but what's different about 886 00:37:29.712 --> 00:37:31.226 Right. But now 887 00:37:31.849 --> 00:37:33.713 now they're rolling out all sorts of I mean, 888 00:37:33.713 --> 00:37:35.249 everything's going agentic now, 889 00:37:34.306 --> 00:37:36.459 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 890 00:37:35.249 --> 00:37:36.312 so it's sort of like 891 00:37:36.459 --> 00:37:39.672 It's there's a whole like competitive landscape that's exploding 892 00:37:39.672 --> 00:37:44.898 now with other agentic things and tools and dot in your ChatGPT and 893 00:37:44.802 --> 00:37:45.802 Yeah. 894 00:37:45.279 --> 00:37:46.761 Meta has its own version of yeah, 895 00:37:46.761 --> 00:37:49.054 there's there's news there's yeah, 896 00:37:47.275 --> 00:37:49.495 Muse, yeah. so I think the g you know, 897 00:37:49.054 --> 00:37:50.235 there's a million versions of this. 898 00:37:49.495 --> 00:37:50.807 the goal is the 899 00:37:50.807 --> 00:37:52.117 the goal from these companies, 900 00:37:52.117 --> 00:37:55.739 right, is that they wanna be the you're all cons they want they wanna be 901 00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:57.190 the one to like, I don't know, 902 00:37:57.190 --> 00:37:59.728 I like face hugger an alien, like really, 903 00:37:59.728 --> 00:38:02.923 you know, like own you. 904 00:37:59.787 --> 00:38:02.508 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. 905 00:38:02.508 --> 00:38:03.508 Like there's 906 00:38:02.938 --> 00:38:06.650 like a hand gently covering your hand and like taking control of things. 907 00:38:05.622 --> 00:38:09.386 huh. It's just super creepy, 908 00:38:06.650 --> 00:38:10.642 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Like that is that is and and 'cause you 909 00:38:09.386 --> 00:38:10.386 right? 910 00:38:10.642 --> 00:38:12.052 know, and think about like what Meta wants. 911 00:38:12.052 --> 00:38:14.813 Meta wants all your data. Like that's what Meta's always wanted. 912 00:38:14.813 --> 00:38:16.364 Meta's wants all of your data, 913 00:38:16.364 --> 00:38:19.785 all of your personal understanding so they can pummel you with ads, 914 00:38:19.785 --> 00:38:20.966 like whatever the hell they're gonna do with it. 915 00:38:20.966 --> 00:38:24.437 So there's there's a lot going on on the commercial side of this. 916 00:38:24.437 --> 00:38:27.949 I think the thing that that we found valuable is so basically like 917 00:38:28.099 --> 00:38:32.510 Bruce, who you mentioned, Bruce is kind of our agent that lives in our Discord. 918 00:38:32.510 --> 00:38:34.061 So we use Discord instead of Slack. 919 00:38:34.061 --> 00:38:36.441 I don't know why. Anthony and Ryan like Discord. 920 00:38:36.441 --> 00:38:38.162 I think it's for creeps, but these guys like it. 921 00:38:38.162 --> 00:38:40.873 So we use Discord. So in our Discord, 922 00:38:40.873 --> 00:38:43.163 Bruce is a person that exists in our Discord. 923 00:38:43.163 --> 00:38:45.234 And Anthony set it up that Bruce has like an identity. 924 00:38:45.234 --> 00:38:47.975 He has a Pine Works email. He has a GitHub account. 925 00:38:47.975 --> 00:38:51.306 Like he functions like a member of the team in a variety of ways. 926 00:38:51.306 --> 00:38:55.047 And what we found is like the more. 927 00:38:55.047 --> 00:38:56.367 So basically what happened was. 928 00:38:57.977 --> 00:39:02.658 Basically, what happened was we realized that rather than go through 929 00:39:02.658 --> 00:39:06.429 the drudgery of document everything that we always talk about, 930 00:39:06.429 --> 00:39:11.069 we could essentially create an agent called Bruce who could pay attention 931 00:39:11.069 --> 00:39:12.760 to what happens in our Discord channels. 932 00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:15.851 And then Bruce, paying attention to what happened in our Discord channels, 933 00:39:15.851 --> 00:39:17.811 could update information in our CRM. 934 00:39:17.811 --> 00:39:21.202 It could update information in different places in the Pine Works world based on. 935 00:39:21.352 --> 00:39:24.384 The observed behavior that Bruce was privy to because he was in 936 00:39:24.384 --> 00:39:27.856 our sales channel and he was in our marketing channel and he was 937 00:39:27.856 --> 00:39:29.587 in these other places. And then 938 00:39:29.186 --> 00:39:30.186 Okay. 939 00:39:29.587 --> 00:39:33.158 we kind of got carried away in a good way and realized actually, 940 00:39:33.158 --> 00:39:36.970 if we all start using Granola and we transcribe all of our calls, 941 00:39:36.970 --> 00:39:39.962 and then we connect Granola through an API to Bruce, 942 00:39:39.962 --> 00:39:44.595 like Bruce then is essentially a participant in all of our meetings and listening. 943 00:39:44.595 --> 00:39:48.327 And he's in our Slack or our Discord paying attention to that stuff. 944 00:39:48.477 --> 00:39:51.618 And if we just give him this agentic role of like, 945 00:39:51.618 --> 00:39:54.239 listen, you're our biz dev enablement partner. 946 00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:57.210 So as you listen to our meetings and as you listen to our con and we, 947 00:39:57.210 --> 00:39:59.680 you know, we'll probably turn Granola off in certain cases, 948 00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:01.921 but use Granola most of the time so it captures more. 949 00:40:01.921 --> 00:40:04.182 And then we found like he's really, 950 00:40:04.182 --> 00:40:08.343 really good at properly documenting and updating everything that's happening 951 00:40:08.493 --> 00:40:10.334 on the biz dev side because he's just 952 00:40:09.982 --> 00:40:10.982 Yeah. 953 00:40:10.334 --> 00:40:11.384 paying attention to all of it. 954 00:40:11.384 --> 00:40:13.705 And and as the as a biz dev guy. 955 00:40:13.855 --> 00:40:15.836 My superpower is not documenting things. 956 00:40:15.836 --> 00:40:17.777 Anybody that has ever worked with me, 957 00:40:17.777 --> 00:40:21.738 as a biz dev guy, will tell you my strong point is not documenting things. 958 00:40:21.738 --> 00:40:25.500 My strong point is being me in space with people. 959 00:40:25.500 --> 00:40:27.311 Like that's that's my strong point, 960 00:40:26.335 --> 00:40:30.422 Yeah. Yeah, y I resemble that comment. 961 00:40:27.311 --> 00:40:30.962 is like to go be that guy. Yeah. 962 00:40:30.422 --> 00:40:31.422 Yeah. 963 00:40:31.022 --> 00:40:36.635 So like the more I can go be that guy and not spend time documenting all this stuff, 964 00:40:36.635 --> 00:40:39.056 it's a better use of my inherent skills. 965 00:40:39.056 --> 00:40:40.807 Then we started to like, there's all these. 966 00:40:40.957 --> 00:40:46.271 ancillary benefits where if so so Ryan and Anthony had a call on Monday that 967 00:40:46.271 --> 00:40:48.852 I was not a part of. I just asked Bruce what happened on that call. 968 00:40:48.852 --> 00:40:51.533 Like what happened on the call with Ted on Monday morning? 969 00:40:51.533 --> 00:40:54.695 You know, and then I get a brief is there any you know next steps or anything 970 00:40:54.695 --> 00:40:58.318 I need to be aware of or something I need no like he's paying attention to 971 00:40:58.318 --> 00:41:01.530 all of it and allowing me to kind of like dip into or be a part 972 00:41:01.530 --> 00:41:02.881 of that meeting without being part of it. 973 00:41:02.881 --> 00:41:06.444 So that was that's where Bruce kind of originated from. 974 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:06.776 So it started, yeah. 975 00:41:06.444 --> 00:41:07.444 Yeah. 976 00:41:07.324 --> 00:41:08.365 And now we're building 977 00:41:08.515 --> 00:41:14.247 Like sales enablement tools for actual enterprise that's built on a lot 978 00:41:14.247 --> 00:41:19.149 of the same attributes and a lot of the same like behaviors and and connections. 979 00:41:19.149 --> 00:41:20.489 So basically with one of our clients, 980 00:41:20.489 --> 00:41:22.019 we created this thing called Sam. 981 00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:25.911 Sam is their sales analysis management tool. 982 00:41:25.911 --> 00:41:29.032 and it's again hooked up through Granola. 983 00:41:29.032 --> 00:41:32.962 So this is an organization that has like a six person sales team. 984 00:41:33.112 --> 00:41:35.223 This person's not great at documenting things. 985 00:41:35.223 --> 00:41:37.743 This person documents things but a little bit the wrong way. 986 00:41:37.743 --> 00:41:39.334 This person's okay at documenting. 987 00:41:39.334 --> 00:41:44.305 So basically Sam sits on their HubSpot and he's connected to the Granola. 988 00:41:44.305 --> 00:41:49.465 And Sam just every day enriches all of their customer data perfectly based 989 00:41:49.465 --> 00:41:51.826 on clear directions and guidelines. 990 00:41:51.826 --> 00:41:55.534 And that's and that's part of where like I I think part of where the value 991 00:41:55.534 --> 00:41:57.687 of an agentic approach this comes from is. 992 00:41:57.837 --> 00:42:01.609 Anthony and Ryan are able to design these agents programmatically 993 00:42:01.759 --> 00:42:06.373 to always execute the same thing the same way every single time. 994 00:42:06.373 --> 00:42:09.074 And it the imagination never wanders off. 995 00:42:09.074 --> 00:42:12.427 The model never the model never yeah, 996 00:42:09.376 --> 00:42:11.747 That's important. Yeah. 'Cause drift is real, 997 00:42:11.747 --> 00:42:12.747 right? 998 00:42:12.427 --> 00:42:15.739 yeah. No, like it it it insulates you from like if you do this stuff on Claude, 999 00:42:15.739 --> 00:42:18.101 you can do versions of this stuff on Claude and ChatGPT, 1000 00:42:18.101 --> 00:42:19.472 you can do a lot of this stuff already. 1001 00:42:19.472 --> 00:42:21.383 The risk is if you're kind of 1002 00:42:21.533 --> 00:42:23.425 Working with the models and the models change. 1003 00:42:23.425 --> 00:42:24.886 If the model changes, if you whatever, 1004 00:42:24.886 --> 00:42:29.120 there's a lot of ways that this thing can become shaggy fairly quickly. 1005 00:42:29.120 --> 00:42:33.873 The cool thing about designing very specific agents is like 1006 00:42:34.094 --> 00:42:40.989 Sam will properly document this information forever until 1007 00:42:40.989 --> 00:42:45.533 you tell Sam to stop. Like, and we'll never do it any differently because every time 1008 00:42:45.533 --> 00:42:47.054 there's this, you know, there's code. 1009 00:42:47.204 --> 00:42:50.385 That prompts Sam to do this thing exactly the same way every time. 1010 00:42:50.385 --> 00:42:53.886 And that's important. If you're trying to create a hygienic environment 1011 00:42:53.886 --> 00:42:57.897 in HubSpot with a big team, you need to have like good data. 1012 00:42:57.897 --> 00:42:59.998 Good data in, good data out, bad data in, 1013 00:42:59.998 --> 00:43:05.099 bad data out. So, you know, just passively connecting all that stuff then allows 1014 00:43:05.099 --> 00:43:09.220 that sales team to not have to worry about so much documentation burden. 1015 00:43:09.220 --> 00:43:13.322 Number one. Number two, it then allows the executive view over all 1016 00:43:13.322 --> 00:43:14.492 of that sales activity. 1017 00:43:14.642 --> 00:43:17.467 to have a crystal clear idea of what's going on in sales. 1018 00:43:17.467 --> 00:43:18.467 Like, 1019 00:43:17.724 --> 00:43:18.724 Right. 1020 00:43:18.031 --> 00:43:19.520 I don't have to vr I don't have to, 1021 00:43:19.520 --> 00:43:23.137 you know, trust Susan when she tells me that this one deal feels like it's close 1022 00:43:23.137 --> 00:43:25.190 to closing. I can go in and see like 1023 00:43:23.978 --> 00:43:25.222 Yeah. Or or listen or 1024 00:43:25.222 --> 00:43:26.906 listen to their listen to their calls, 1025 00:43:26.906 --> 00:43:29.283 you know, or watch the recordings of their calls. 1026 00:43:27.916 --> 00:43:29.707 Exactly. Yeah, or listen to the calls or 1027 00:43:29.283 --> 00:43:30.283 Yeah. 1028 00:43:29.707 --> 00:43:34.561 all that. Like our buddy Will Reynolds is using this stuff at Sear and 1029 00:43:34.561 --> 00:43:38.633 he has this like transparency into all this stuff now that he didn't used 1030 00:43:38.633 --> 00:43:41.394 to have because he's able to just ask these questions. 1031 00:43:41.394 --> 00:43:44.976 Now he's, you know, it takes a while to get an organization to start 1032 00:43:44.976 --> 00:43:48.048 to use the right tools to to make this kind of transparency possible. 1033 00:43:48.048 --> 00:43:51.410 But once you do that, like and reporting is still kind of like 1034 00:43:51.410 --> 00:43:53.131 the checker's version of the outcome. 1035 00:43:53.131 --> 00:43:55.252 The chess version of the outcome is like. 1036 00:43:55.444 --> 00:44:00.887 Okay, well now our our Bruce or our Sam or whatever has been paying attention 1037 00:44:00.887 --> 00:44:04.019 to this data for so long and observing these patterns. 1038 00:44:04.019 --> 00:44:08.112 Like now I want you to like tell me who my sales prospects should be 1039 00:44:08.112 --> 00:44:09.332 and who should I reach out to. 1040 00:44:09.332 --> 00:44:11.383 Like based on all this observed behavior, 1041 00:44:11.383 --> 00:44:13.774 like what should I be saying differently that I'm, 1042 00:44:13.774 --> 00:44:16.245 you know, some of these calls are successful and some of them are not. 1043 00:44:16.245 --> 00:44:20.747 Like give me actual like strategy that I could choose or not choose to use. 1044 00:44:20.747 --> 00:44:22.088 Like that, that to me is like the 1045 00:44:22.238 --> 00:44:26.450 interesting next step in all this is it's amazing at documenting 1046 00:44:26.450 --> 00:44:31.005 and reporting all this stuff. It's actually not terrible at it it what it's really 1047 00:44:31.005 --> 00:44:35.757 good at is giving you like four B to C plus ideas. 1048 00:44:35.757 --> 00:44:37.367 And then you, because you're smart, 1049 00:44:37.367 --> 00:44:39.448 you say, screw that first two, 1050 00:44:39.448 --> 00:44:40.928 screw the last two. The one in the middle, 1051 00:44:40.928 --> 00:44:42.708 that one, if you just add 1052 00:44:41.398 --> 00:44:42.506 Interesting. Yeah. 1053 00:44:42.708 --> 00:44:44.899 this razzle dazzle to it, that's a really good idea. 1054 00:44:44.899 --> 00:44:47.160 And I am going to like, you know, 1055 00:44:47.310 --> 00:44:50.923 go prospecting for clients based on this criteria that you've identified that 1056 00:44:50.923 --> 00:44:52.724 now I can like use to 1057 00:44:52.305 --> 00:44:53.305 Right. 1058 00:44:52.724 --> 00:44:53.905 find more people to, you know, 1059 00:44:53.905 --> 00:44:57.088 reach out to. Like I think that's so that that's how our kind 1060 00:44:57.088 --> 00:45:01.801 of little sandboxy thing has turned into actual client implementation. 1061 00:45:01.951 --> 00:45:06.964 Well well that's I mean, wh what are what are you building that on? 1062 00:45:06.964 --> 00:45:10.987 If you're not if you're not working with a a clot or a codex or 1063 00:45:10.987 --> 00:45:14.259 or something like that, how are how are you setting that kind of structure up? 1064 00:45:14.409 --> 00:45:18.611 In in this particular case, for for Bruce in particular, 1065 00:45:18.611 --> 00:45:20.242 Bruce is connected to ChatGPT. 1066 00:45:20.242 --> 00:45:24.744 We d we are using that LLM as as the LLM at the heart of like a lot 1067 00:45:24.744 --> 00:45:26.171 of the logic that Bruce goes through. 1068 00:45:26.171 --> 00:45:28.827 We used Claude for a while. Billing 1069 00:45:28.201 --> 00:45:29.201 Yeah. 1070 00:45:28.827 --> 00:45:30.328 and money became an issue with Claude. 1071 00:45:30.328 --> 00:45:32.818 There was like a whole like I think that's now course corrected. 1072 00:45:32.818 --> 00:45:35.980 There like a minute where it became really punitive to use Claude. 1073 00:45:35.980 --> 00:45:38.762 We were burning too many tokens and and it became too expensive. 1074 00:45:38.762 --> 00:45:40.753 I think that has kind of like 1075 00:45:40.903 --> 00:45:44.246 calm down again. But yeah, there is there is like a there is an LLM in 1076 00:45:44.246 --> 00:45:46.418 the middle of it that allows for that kind of like, 1077 00:45:46.418 --> 00:45:49.340 you know, growing knowledge base that that but again, 1078 00:45:49.340 --> 00:45:54.624 even that is like super walled garden and curated and, 1079 00:45:54.624 --> 00:45:55.624 you know, it's 1080 00:45:55.641 --> 00:45:56.641 Yeah. 1081 00:45:55.955 --> 00:45:58.337 only being fed Pine Works things. 1082 00:45:58.337 --> 00:46:02.400 So it's only generating outcomes based on reality, 1083 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:05.961 not based on like, you know, Google searches and and whatever the hell else 1084 00:46:04.238 --> 00:46:06.600 Right, right. But for a c for for a client, 1085 00:46:05.961 --> 00:46:07.635 I'm going to be do. Yeah. 1086 00:46:06.600 --> 00:46:07.761 for a client, 1087 00:46:07.761 --> 00:46:12.233 like so here's the thing. We were just talking about how several 1088 00:46:12.233 --> 00:46:15.404 of our we've heard stories, maybe it's happened to us, 1089 00:46:14.995 --> 00:46:18.552 yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1090 00:46:15.404 --> 00:46:19.247 where our ChatGPTs have our AIs have sent off some 1091 00:46:18.552 --> 00:46:19.552 Yeah. Yeah. 1092 00:46:19.448 --> 00:46:22.089 email without authority. 1093 00:46:21.448 --> 00:46:22.448 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1094 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:24.070 so there's this notion of high agency, 1095 00:46:24.070 --> 00:46:26.681 which I understand is is like super intelligence, 1096 00:46:26.681 --> 00:46:30.174 right? Like it will it will be it will have the smartest answer. 1097 00:46:30.324 --> 00:46:33.176 it will have it it will have the best solution and it will just 1098 00:46:33.176 --> 00:46:34.927 go execute that solution and then it will 1099 00:46:34.567 --> 00:46:35.567 Yeah, yeah. 1100 00:46:34.927 --> 00:46:36.928 also be continuing to make itself better. 1101 00:46:36.928 --> 00:46:39.329 So the self-improvement and you know, 1102 00:46:39.329 --> 00:46:41.131 all of that, if that's the goal, 1103 00:46:41.131 --> 00:46:45.433 like right now, it's terrifying to think that these things could go ahead 1104 00:46:45.433 --> 00:46:47.655 and just start doing whatever they want. 1105 00:46:46.325 --> 00:46:47.515 Yeah. Yeah. 1106 00:46:47.805 --> 00:46:50.706 Yeah. I agree. And I think I I agree entirely. 1107 00:46:50.706 --> 00:46:53.888 And I think that I was just talking to our friend Amanda Buck about this. 1108 00:46:53.888 --> 00:46:55.229 I was talking to Amanda about this. 1109 00:46:55.229 --> 00:47:00.201 That I think that people still like a user interface. 1110 00:47:00.201 --> 00:47:04.313 Like there's nothing about these tools that needs a interface. 1111 00:47:04.313 --> 00:47:08.555 Like it can just be a dialogue box and you could do whatever you want forever. 1112 00:47:08.705 --> 00:47:12.268 Just by typing stuff into a dialog box and it talking back to you. 1113 00:47:12.268 --> 00:47:17.823 We have, as an industry, grown up over the last 30 years to like some kind 1114 00:47:17.823 --> 00:47:20.415 of graphic user interface, some kind of dashboard, 1115 00:47:20.415 --> 00:47:24.078 some kind of like thoughtfully designed user experience, 1116 00:47:22.442 --> 00:47:23.965 Control panel, yeah. 1117 00:47:24.298 --> 00:47:28.062 control panel, you got it. Like some amount of like interface. 1118 00:47:26.132 --> 00:47:28.067 Well, right, but yeah, 1119 00:47:28.288 --> 00:47:30.152 our experience we care about yeah, 1120 00:47:30.152 --> 00:47:33.471 our experience using this thing has to be considered, 1121 00:47:30.638 --> 00:47:33.418 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 1122 00:47:33.471 --> 00:47:34.471 right? 1123 00:47:34.161 --> 00:47:39.894 Ex and I think what that does in a good way is it provides like a keyhole that 1124 00:47:39.894 --> 00:47:41.655 the information has to kind of squeak through. 1125 00:47:41.655 --> 00:47:43.546 Like, I don't want you to do everything. 1126 00:47:43.546 --> 00:47:46.308 I want this answer. I want that insight. 1127 00:47:46.308 --> 00:47:51.151 I want this report. Like if you c if you create those kinds of controls and, 1128 00:47:51.151 --> 00:47:52.772 you know, bottlenecks in certain places, 1129 00:47:52.772 --> 00:47:56.325 limitations in others, like just kind of build the guardrails around this stuff, 1130 00:47:56.325 --> 00:47:58.026 that's how you prevent it from 1131 00:47:58.176 --> 00:47:59.176 Totally. 1132 00:47:58.683 --> 00:48:01.714 Yeah, getting ambitious and sending emails you didn't expect it to send. 1133 00:48:01.714 --> 00:48:04.915 You know, like that that that's that's how you set the the guardrails 1134 00:48:04.915 --> 00:48:06.745 in place that like, you know, again, 1135 00:48:06.745 --> 00:48:09.456 if you if you build this agentic layer on top of it, 1136 00:48:09.456 --> 00:48:13.437 it's rigid. There's a there's a structure in a rigidity that I think 1137 00:48:13.557 --> 00:48:15.647 is powerful when you're gonna use, 1138 00:48:15.647 --> 00:48:17.178 you know, that this is sensitive information, 1139 00:48:17.178 --> 00:48:18.858 this is customer data, or this is, 1140 00:48:18.858 --> 00:48:20.289 you know, what whatever it is. 1141 00:48:20.289 --> 00:48:23.939 Like you wanna have you wanna build that kind of rigidity around it so that 1142 00:48:24.019 --> 00:48:25.970 not only is it not hallucinating. 1143 00:48:26.120 --> 00:48:30.382 And drawing, you know, crazy conclusions or or kind of losing the thread 1144 00:48:30.382 --> 00:48:33.163 the more you use it. You also want to kind of limit its capability 1145 00:48:33.313 --> 00:48:38.215 and its output and have it only through the little keyholes in your dashboard. 1146 00:48:38.215 --> 00:48:42.647 You know, listen, I just I need you so another example of another project 1147 00:48:42.667 --> 00:48:48.370 is we're building this. So one of our clients has is a is a VC backed company 1148 00:48:48.370 --> 00:48:50.021 and they have these monthly board meetings. 1149 00:48:50.021 --> 00:48:52.232 And every month they have to make a report for the board. 1150 00:48:52.392 --> 00:48:53.723 And they have and it's stressful thing, 1151 00:48:53.723 --> 00:48:54.833 they to collect all these assets. 1152 00:48:54.833 --> 00:48:57.113 It's always like this like we use like we lose like 1153 00:48:56.783 --> 00:48:57.783 yeah. 1154 00:48:57.113 --> 00:49:00.126 a week of productivity working with them because they're scrambling to 1155 00:49:00.126 --> 00:49:02.438 put all this crap together at that point in the week. 1156 00:49:02.438 --> 00:49:06.410 And you know, Anthony's like, what if like can we stop? 1157 00:49:06.410 --> 00:49:09.082 Like, what if we stop that? Like what if instead, 1158 00:49:09.082 --> 00:49:14.215 like what if instead we build you a dashboard that is all the information that might 1159 00:49:14.215 --> 00:49:16.666 come out of your presentation deck, 1160 00:49:16.666 --> 00:49:18.977 but we can just feed this information. 1161 00:49:19.127 --> 00:49:20.648 And there's a little bit of curation too. 1162 00:49:20.648 --> 00:49:21.889 Like even with Bruce, I should have said this, 1163 00:49:21.889 --> 00:49:23.429 so forgive me. I should back up. 1164 00:49:23.429 --> 00:49:27.452 I still don't let Bruce do everything entirely by himself. 1165 00:49:27.452 --> 00:49:30.934 So when when Bruce goes through all of our every day, 1166 00:49:30.934 --> 00:49:33.416 Bruce goes through all of our conversations and all of our dialogue 1167 00:49:33.416 --> 00:49:37.828 and all these things, and it basically sends me a message with a numbered list 1168 00:49:37.828 --> 00:49:41.851 of all the changes and updates it proposes to make to our CRM. 1169 00:49:41.851 --> 00:49:45.223 So as the owner of the CRM, as the person in charge of this. 1170 00:49:45.373 --> 00:49:49.044 I go through all of Bruce's proposed updates one through 17, 1171 00:49:49.044 --> 00:49:53.575 and I tell him all are approved except for 13 and you know, 1172 00:49:53.575 --> 00:49:57.956 18. Or just 17. So 13 and 14. Like everything's approved for these two. 1173 00:49:57.956 --> 00:49:59.936 And and you and there's still things. 1174 00:49:59.936 --> 00:50:04.567 There's still things where like it's Bruce is like over indexing 1175 00:50:04.567 --> 00:50:06.197 and thinking there's more signal there than there is, 1176 00:50:06.197 --> 00:50:08.848 or Bruce is misunderstanding that this person's related. 1177 00:50:08.848 --> 00:50:10.809 Like there's still some in inefficiency 1178 00:50:10.130 --> 00:50:11.130 yeah. 1179 00:50:10.809 --> 00:50:12.009 and imperfection in there. So like 1180 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:15.571 So again, in that in that example of like the the communicating this information 1181 00:50:15.571 --> 00:50:17.261 to a board meeting, you know, it's like, 1182 00:50:17.261 --> 00:50:20.953 so then, all right, instead of finance sending this information to 1183 00:50:20.953 --> 00:50:24.204 one person and this other team sending this information to another person, 1184 00:50:24.204 --> 00:50:26.065 and all now instead it's like, 1185 00:50:26.065 --> 00:50:27.986 listen, we're we're connected to this data. 1186 00:50:27.986 --> 00:50:31.167 You as the head of finance now look at the data as it's presented 1187 00:50:31.167 --> 00:50:34.569 in this dashboard and decide if it's accurate or something's missing. 1188 00:50:34.569 --> 00:50:37.640 Like you're more editing and curating than you are responsible 1189 00:50:37.640 --> 00:50:39.241 for lugging this water up the hill. 1190 00:50:39.391 --> 00:50:40.832 out of the weld of the house. You know, 1191 00:50:40.832 --> 00:50:41.993 it's like you're not having to do that. 1192 00:50:41.993 --> 00:50:45.606 It is, it's already here. You just have to like curate it and make sure that it's 1193 00:50:45.606 --> 00:50:49.849 right. And then rather than poop out a presentation once a month, 1194 00:50:49.849 --> 00:50:52.291 like this dashboard's alive all the time. 1195 00:50:52.291 --> 00:50:55.583 If you want to jump in and take a look at it halfway into the month before 1196 00:50:55.583 --> 00:50:57.535 the next board meeting, it's accurate then. 1197 00:50:57.535 --> 00:51:00.037 It's accurate three quarters of the way through the month. 1198 00:51:00.037 --> 00:51:01.959 And it's accurate when the board meeting comes around. 1199 00:51:01.959 --> 00:51:07.003 And by the way, it can also create a presentation deck 1200 00:51:07.153 --> 00:51:11.605 fairly effectively because we've designed a design system and 1201 00:51:11.605 --> 00:51:15.777 a presentation deck style guide and all of these things that allow it 1202 00:51:15.777 --> 00:51:20.640 to like stitch together a pretty good looking PDF presentation that's downloadable 1203 00:51:20.640 --> 00:51:24.102 for the people that still want to print it out and read it on top of their laptop. 1204 00:51:24.102 --> 00:51:27.134 Like so again, that's a it's it's good data in. 1205 00:51:27.134 --> 00:51:31.866 It it it it is only valuable built on all the good data that it's hoovering up. 1206 00:51:31.866 --> 00:51:34.057 And then it's can you take this thing 1207 00:51:34.207 --> 00:51:39.510 And can you create guardrails so that you curate the output and then design 1208 00:51:39.510 --> 00:51:41.742 it in such a way that meets user needs? 1209 00:51:41.742 --> 00:51:43.593 I think the reason I was talking to Amanda about this is like, 1210 00:51:43.593 --> 00:51:48.648 I think actually this is going to drive the need for smart UX designers. 1211 00:51:48.648 --> 00:51:50.819 This is not going to replace UX designers. 1212 00:51:50.819 --> 00:51:54.462 This is going to give UX designers a million more projects to work 1213 00:51:54.462 --> 00:51:56.824 on because a million more people are going to be able to build 1214 00:51:56.824 --> 00:51:59.136 a million more things, but still need. 1215 00:51:59.286 --> 00:52:03.420 someone who knows what the hell they're talking about to design that interface 1216 00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:07.575 or design that dashboard or design whatever their love language is. 1217 00:52:05.984 --> 00:52:08.556 You know, a lot a lot along those lines, 1218 00:52:07.575 --> 00:52:09.140 Yeah. 1219 00:52:08.556 --> 00:52:09.556 I was just talking 1220 00:52:09.416 --> 00:52:12.469 to one of one of the folks that works at adeo, 1221 00:52:12.469 --> 00:52:18.853 and she wants to get more exposed to UX design and UX strategy. 1222 00:52:18.853 --> 00:52:21.445 And she was looking at some classes, 1223 00:52:21.445 --> 00:52:26.259 and I said, you know, one of the things you can do is just start building things, 1224 00:52:26.259 --> 00:52:29.901 just start building interfaces and then react to them, 1225 00:52:29.901 --> 00:52:32.363 guide them, curate them, because 1226 00:52:30.693 --> 00:52:32.258 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1227 00:52:32.513 --> 00:52:36.316 that's gonna immediately throw you in and have conversations about them 1228 00:52:36.936 --> 00:52:41.368 with other people, but like you can get hands-on much 1229 00:52:40.734 --> 00:52:41.734 Mm-hmm. 1230 00:52:41.448 --> 00:52:43.890 more quickly doing this kind of work too. 1231 00:52:43.742 --> 00:52:44.742 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 1232 00:52:44.574 --> 00:52:47.960 And and so I think that you know there's you don't have that barrier 1233 00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:54.540 of like needing to learn all of the skills to to create the user interface, 1234 00:52:52.068 --> 00:52:55.259 Yeah, a yes. Yes. 1235 00:52:55.261 --> 00:52:58.463 but you do have to really understand how to how to curate. 1236 00:52:58.463 --> 00:52:59.974 Again, 1237 00:52:58.970 --> 00:53:00.161 Well and I and I think that that 1238 00:53:00.161 --> 00:53:05.325 is, yeah. I have another client who has been a little nervous in the service about, 1239 00:53:05.325 --> 00:53:10.589 you know, we we design, we make brands and we design marketing websites. 1240 00:53:10.589 --> 00:53:14.271 You know, is AI gonna gobble up the work we do? 1241 00:53:14.271 --> 00:53:18.125 You know, is AI gonna get good at making any marketing making marketing websites? 1242 00:53:18.125 --> 00:53:20.557 And then nobody needs me to make marketing websites anymore. 1243 00:53:20.557 --> 00:53:23.460 And my stance has always been and remains. 1244 00:53:23.610 --> 00:53:27.171 It's gonna like if you have a developer building these things in Webflow 1245 00:53:27.371 --> 00:53:28.972 or making these things in WordPress, 1246 00:53:28.972 --> 00:53:33.404 in the year of our Lord 2026, that developer's not writing code anymore. 1247 00:53:33.404 --> 00:53:37.546 Like that's already done. That developer is working with whatever tools they 1248 00:53:37.546 --> 00:53:39.347 use to write the code for them, 1249 00:53:39.347 --> 00:53:42.258 and they're editing and they're overseeing and they're managing like 1250 00:53:42.258 --> 00:53:46.230 a fictional dev team of coders that are writing lines of code and they're 1251 00:53:46.230 --> 00:53:47.640 not really writing code anymore. 1252 00:53:47.640 --> 00:53:48.801 And then similarly. 1253 00:53:48.951 --> 00:53:50.542 That is coming on the design side, 1254 00:53:50.542 --> 00:53:53.654 where, like, you know, I'm going to design this brand, 1255 00:53:53.654 --> 00:53:55.685 I'm going to design this editorial, 1256 00:53:55.685 --> 00:53:57.656 whatever, the guidelines and all this stuff. 1257 00:53:57.656 --> 00:54:00.506 If I need to make a component for a website, 1258 00:54:00.506 --> 00:54:02.097 I mean, I could make the component, 1259 00:54:02.097 --> 00:54:05.839 or I could just use a tool to create the component based on the 1260 00:54:05.533 --> 00:54:06.533 Right. 1261 00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:08.770 part that is the important part, 1262 00:54:08.770 --> 00:54:10.121 that's always been the important part, 1263 00:54:10.121 --> 00:54:12.682 that is the important part for your person learning UX. 1264 00:54:12.682 --> 00:54:15.674 The important part is the upfront discovery. 1265 00:54:16.202 --> 00:54:20.568 definition, user research, stakeholder research, 1266 00:54:20.568 --> 00:54:23.731 all that soft skill stuff, that's always been, 1267 00:54:23.731 --> 00:54:25.674 that's always been the secret sauce. 1268 00:54:25.674 --> 00:54:29.218 Right? Even back to you and I making websites in, 1269 00:54:29.218 --> 00:54:30.811 you know, 2011. 1270 00:54:30.961 --> 00:54:33.052 No, there's no there's no way to leapfrog that. 1271 00:54:33.052 --> 00:54:34.052 Absolutely. 1272 00:54:33.926 --> 00:54:37.339 That's the that is it's your then that's another area where like the journey 1273 00:54:37.339 --> 00:54:40.622 is the thing. Like you have to go through those conversations. 1274 00:54:40.622 --> 00:54:43.574 You have to have a workshop. You have to talk to the librarian who's 1275 00:54:43.574 --> 00:54:46.557 got crazy fucking ideas for what they want the website 1276 00:54:46.164 --> 00:54:47.164 I know. 1277 00:54:46.557 --> 00:54:48.488 to be. Like, you gotta do all that stuff. 1278 00:54:48.488 --> 00:54:52.061 Like there's no get so like I think that's where Yeah, 1279 00:54:50.223 --> 00:54:53.504 the librarians. Sorry, PTSD, 1280 00:54:52.061 --> 00:54:53.622 yeah, totally, man. Like here they come. 1281 00:54:53.504 --> 00:54:54.504 yeah. 1282 00:54:53.982 --> 00:54:56.044 Here comes the librarian, like over the over the rope. 1283 00:54:56.044 --> 00:54:57.875 You thought you were done, and then the librarian comes in, 1284 00:54:57.875 --> 00:55:00.417 like, Jesus Christ. but like, 1285 00:55:00.417 --> 00:55:01.417 but but 1286 00:55:01.444 --> 00:55:05.376 That is, that's the part that everyone who's good has always been good 1287 00:55:05.376 --> 00:55:08.638 at and kind of not really valued it enough. 1288 00:55:08.638 --> 00:55:09.968 And that's the part that, like, 1289 00:55:09.968 --> 00:55:13.949 yeah, like you can you can make interfaces and you can make user experience, 1290 00:55:13.949 --> 00:55:17.271 but like the skill you have to develop and why you need to talk to people about 1291 00:55:17.271 --> 00:55:20.263 it to your point, is like, what does the user need? 1292 00:55:20.263 --> 00:55:23.334 What does the user say they need and what do they actually need? 1293 00:55:23.334 --> 00:55:24.725 What do they think they need? 1294 00:55:23.684 --> 00:55:24.805 Right. Well, I should I should 1295 00:55:24.955 --> 00:55:28.307 yeah. It's like that's why I've I back to this conversation I had, 1296 00:55:28.307 --> 00:55:31.458 I I was like, make things that you need. 1297 00:55:31.458 --> 00:55:34.950 Right. So make tools that you need in your job. 1298 00:55:31.668 --> 00:55:33.898 Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. 1299 00:55:33.898 --> 00:55:35.558 Yes. Yes. 1300 00:55:35.697 --> 00:55:39.198 And then then you'll have something to respond to because you'll be like, 1301 00:55:39.161 --> 00:55:42.226 Yeah. Cause you'll know it's exactly not what you need. 1302 00:55:39.198 --> 00:55:40.869 well, this isn't really working for me. 1303 00:55:40.869 --> 00:55:44.851 Right, right. So it's not like just make, 1304 00:55:42.226 --> 00:55:44.740 You will know. Right. Yeah, exactly. 1305 00:55:44.740 --> 00:55:47.104 Right. Fictional. Right. Yeah, 1306 00:55:44.851 --> 00:55:47.382 you know, imaginary things that you have no right. 1307 00:55:47.104 --> 00:55:48.104 yeah. Yes. 1308 00:55:48.123 --> 00:55:50.364 so I think the I think the process of 1309 00:55:50.484 --> 00:55:56.772 building our own things right now is really exciting to me because 1310 00:55:54.811 --> 00:55:57.965 Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. 1311 00:55:56.772 --> 00:55:57.994 I think that 1312 00:55:58.144 --> 00:56:01.999 that's just the best way I think we can learn all of this stuff. 1313 00:56:02.149 --> 00:56:08.572 Yeah, there there's there's a really interesting analogy to the cost of aluminum. 1314 00:56:08.572 --> 00:56:11.433 So at one point the cost of aluminum was incredibly high, 1315 00:56:11.433 --> 00:56:13.264 and aluminum was not in anything. 1316 00:56:13.264 --> 00:56:17.106 And then as the turn of the century happened and it became cheaper to find 1317 00:56:17.106 --> 00:56:18.476 and mine and produce aluminum, 1318 00:56:18.476 --> 00:56:21.226 the price of aluminum dropped insanely, 1319 00:56:21.226 --> 00:56:23.076 and then everything was made out of aluminum. 1320 00:56:23.076 --> 00:56:24.987 Same thing's happening with like software. 1321 00:56:24.987 --> 00:56:27.998 It's like when the cost to produce software goes down. 1322 00:56:28.148 --> 00:56:31.209 The demand goes way up. Like if it's easier, 1323 00:56:31.209 --> 00:56:33.280 faster, like, and that's what has to change too. 1324 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:37.602 Like you can't you can't live in this world where like I only do nine month projects 1325 00:56:37.602 --> 00:56:39.503 that cost $300,000. It's like, 1326 00:56:39.503 --> 00:56:44.395 what if you lived in a world where you did 12 projects that cost $30,000 1327 00:56:44.395 --> 00:56:48.496 in six months and you made $360,000 in one third less the time? 1328 00:56:48.496 --> 00:56:50.976 Like, isn't that cool? Like, what do you care? 1329 00:56:50.976 --> 00:56:52.657 Like, does it have to take nine months? 1330 00:56:52.657 --> 00:56:54.568 Like, do you have to have one client? 1331 00:56:54.568 --> 00:56:55.568 Like 1332 00:56:54.918 --> 00:56:58.280 Wouldn't it be better to have like a variety of things going on with 1333 00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:00.741 a lot more people that didn't used to be able to hire you? 1334 00:57:00.741 --> 00:57:04.344 You know, like didn't used to have the resources and the the budget and 1335 00:57:04.344 --> 00:57:05.761 all that to actually engage with stuff. 1336 00:57:05.761 --> 00:57:09.627 Like, no, like now I can now that I'm doing things a little bit faster 1337 00:57:09.627 --> 00:57:11.959 and I'm doing things a little bit more, 1338 00:57:11.959 --> 00:57:13.600 you know, efficiently, or whatever that is, 1339 00:57:13.600 --> 00:57:16.592 and I can then I can afford to bring my price down a little bit. 1340 00:57:16.592 --> 00:57:18.844 Like, you know, I I can the value is still the value. 1341 00:57:18.844 --> 00:57:20.294 And there's a whole conversation about like, 1342 00:57:20.294 --> 00:57:22.285 you know, the value you provide and how much 1343 00:57:22.435 --> 00:57:24.445 I'm here for that. But at the same time, 1344 00:57:24.445 --> 00:57:28.858 like there is there is a just changing with the environment such that 1345 00:57:28.858 --> 00:57:30.849 I mean you've you've been talking about this on your podcast and you've been talking 1346 00:57:30.849 --> 00:57:31.849 about this for the past two years. 1347 00:57:31.809 --> 00:57:35.441 Like there's in in the world of higher ed that you spend a lot of time in, 1348 00:57:35.441 --> 00:57:40.618 there's a lot of muscle memory where a project is a thing that you do every four 1349 00:57:40.618 --> 00:57:45.235 or five years and it takes a year to do it and it costs $350,000. 1350 00:57:45.235 --> 00:57:46.296 Like that's like the muscle 1351 00:57:45.669 --> 00:57:46.669 Yeah. 1352 00:57:46.296 --> 00:57:49.507 memory of higher ed is like that's that's how this stuff works, 1353 00:57:49.507 --> 00:57:50.518 right? And 1354 00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:50.980 Yeah. 1355 00:57:50.668 --> 00:57:52.728 You're out here saying like, not really. 1356 00:57:52.728 --> 00:57:56.109 Like we could do something amazingly impactful and we can do it 1357 00:57:56.109 --> 00:58:00.081 in like twelve weeks. And we can do it for like ninety thousand dollars. 1358 00:58:00.081 --> 00:58:01.592 Like, don't you want to talk about that? 1359 00:58:01.592 --> 00:58:04.313 Like, don't you want to talk about something that like costs vastly less 1360 00:58:04.553 --> 00:58:09.255 and is ready much faster and still like advances your business objectives? 1361 00:58:09.255 --> 00:58:10.255 Like 1362 00:58:09.655 --> 00:58:14.559 Yeah. I also think, you know, this is another aspect of the conversation that 1363 00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:16.110 all the agency people are always having, 1364 00:58:16.110 --> 00:58:18.883 which is like value-based pricing versus time-based pricing. 1365 00:58:18.341 --> 00:58:19.554 Hmm. Yeah. 1366 00:58:18.883 --> 00:58:19.883 And 1367 00:58:19.973 --> 00:58:23.306 the the reality is that you're you still like if if you're gonna 1368 00:58:23.306 --> 00:58:26.608 be able to accomplish a what should should have been maybe 1369 00:58:26.608 --> 00:58:29.650 a sixteen-month-long higher ed website dig you know, 1370 00:58:29.650 --> 00:58:31.492 website project, and let's say that you're like, 1371 00:58:31.492 --> 00:58:35.855 I think we can do this in six months or five months, 1372 00:58:35.855 --> 00:58:36.855 that 1373 00:58:36.575 --> 00:58:39.775 Compression also means kind of like an all in, 1374 00:58:39.775 --> 00:58:42.506 you know, like team teams are shrinking, 1375 00:58:42.506 --> 00:58:43.846 you know. So I'm thinking a lot about like, 1376 00:58:43.412 --> 00:58:44.475 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1377 00:58:43.846 --> 00:58:44.846 okay, 1378 00:58:44.536 --> 00:58:48.047 if you've got the A team on your project using AI, 1379 00:58:47.402 --> 00:58:48.650 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1380 00:58:48.047 --> 00:58:49.238 we can accomplish 1381 00:58:49.238 --> 00:58:52.449 what we would have taken 16 months in five, 1382 00:58:51.294 --> 00:58:53.146 Yeah. A hundred percent. 1383 00:58:52.449 --> 00:58:53.449 but 1384 00:58:53.149 --> 00:58:57.340 that doesn't necessarily mean that I think the the cost drops. 1385 00:58:57.340 --> 00:59:01.522 I think what what drops is the always painful, 1386 00:59:01.522 --> 00:59:02.522 like 1387 00:59:02.022 --> 00:59:06.469 thing where you're charging an agency rate for an hour where you're doing intern 1388 00:59:05.718 --> 00:59:07.326 Yeah. Yeah. 1389 00:59:06.469 --> 00:59:07.469 level work. You know, 1390 00:59:07.451 --> 00:59:09.956 we can cut all of that out. So I think that 1391 00:59:09.555 --> 00:59:10.555 Yes. 1392 00:59:09.956 --> 00:59:14.563 makes efficiencies much better and speed much faster and all those things. 1393 00:59:13.288 --> 00:59:15.689 Yep. And I I yeah, it 1394 00:59:14.563 --> 00:59:15.645 But, you know, 1395 00:59:15.689 --> 00:59:19.262 it really comes down to if you have an abundance attitude or a scarcity attitude 1396 00:59:19.176 --> 00:59:20.176 Yeah, yeah. 1397 00:59:19.322 --> 00:59:20.322 as a human being. 1398 00:59:20.413 --> 00:59:22.875 Like, how are you wired? I'm spoiled. 1399 00:59:22.875 --> 00:59:25.346 I grew up in this like, you know, 1400 00:59:25.346 --> 00:59:30.960 environment of abundance, having worked at Happy Cog when it was like a season 1401 00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:32.942 to be working at Happy Cog. Like that was a good time 1402 00:59:32.560 --> 00:59:33.560 Yeah. 1403 00:59:32.942 --> 00:59:35.163 to be learning the ropes at that point. 1404 00:59:35.163 --> 00:59:38.486 So I'm I'm wired with that kind of inherent attitude. 1405 00:59:38.486 --> 00:59:39.486 You know, like 1406 00:59:39.418 --> 00:59:40.919 The way that Pine, the Pine Works team, 1407 00:59:40.919 --> 00:59:43.371 they're all happy cog people. The way they're all wired is like, 1408 00:59:43.371 --> 00:59:45.342 I don't know, can we do more for clients now? 1409 00:59:45.342 --> 00:59:46.682 Like they can pay us the same. 1410 00:59:46.682 --> 00:59:51.416 We can do a lot more. Like, not not let's not figure out how to like winnow what 1411 00:59:51.416 --> 00:59:53.949 we do down and and cut hours. No, 1412 00:59:53.949 --> 00:59:55.511 like pay us what you were gonna pay us, 1413 00:59:55.511 --> 00:59:57.513 but like look at all the other stuff we can do now too, 1414 00:59:57.513 --> 00:59:59.585 besides just the stuff that you wanted to do. 1415 00:59:59.585 --> 01:00:02.016 And on our end, it's like, what do we care? 1416 01:00:02.016 --> 01:00:04.448 What do we care if we're we're just doing the work? 1417 01:00:04.448 --> 01:00:06.318 Like, I'm doing three hours worth 1418 01:00:05.785 --> 01:00:06.785 Yeah. 1419 01:00:06.318 --> 01:00:07.318 of work. 1420 01:00:06.750 --> 01:00:09.573 If I got like 12 hours worth of work done in three hours, 1421 01:00:09.573 --> 01:00:13.385 what am I gonna like withhold nine hours because I'm penny pinching 1422 01:00:13.385 --> 01:00:16.058 and like looking at a spreadsheet of like hours tracked? 1423 01:00:16.058 --> 01:00:18.209 Like, I think that generally I think 1424 01:00:17.496 --> 01:00:18.496 Yeah, no. 1425 01:00:18.209 --> 01:00:20.731 that you know, when you talk about like value pricing, 1426 01:00:20.731 --> 01:00:23.533 I think you have to establish your value. 1427 01:00:23.533 --> 01:00:26.585 And you have to decide what your output is worth. 1428 01:00:26.585 --> 01:00:27.585 I think anybody 1429 01:00:27.238 --> 01:00:28.238 Sure. 1430 01:00:27.575 --> 01:00:31.469 that tells you, you and I both know some value pricing ding-dongs 1431 01:00:31.469 --> 01:00:32.530 who like to pretend 1432 01:00:32.680 --> 01:00:34.823 They can like calculate what a project is like, 1433 01:00:34.823 --> 01:00:36.706 come on, give me a break. Like, 1434 01:00:36.706 --> 01:00:40.159 you can't. You can sell a lot of I'm not gonna go there. 1435 01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:43.048 What you can do. Yeah, good. 1436 01:00:40.643 --> 01:00:43.134 Yeah. But I th yeah. 1437 01:00:43.284 --> 01:00:48.987 I I I think your your point about how much more we can deliver within the parameters 1438 01:00:48.104 --> 01:00:49.104 Yeah. 1439 01:00:48.987 --> 01:00:55.010 of of what we were doing before is is incrementally has changed 1440 01:00:55.010 --> 01:00:57.331 and is is exciting. Because when I'm hearing 1441 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:57.155 Yeah. Yeah. 1442 01:00:57.631 --> 01:00:59.632 when I'm talking to a client, I'm hearing them talk about 1443 01:00:59.632 --> 01:01:02.703 the problems they're currently having that might be related to, 1444 01:01:02.703 --> 01:01:05.034 you know, the specific thing we're supposed to solve. 1445 01:01:05.034 --> 01:01:06.445 I'm 1446 01:01:06.093 --> 01:01:07.093 Yeah. 1447 01:01:06.445 --> 01:01:07.445 thinking of like 1448 01:01:07.195 --> 01:01:09.200 Other things, how else can we help her solve 1449 01:01:08.406 --> 01:01:09.406 A hundred percent. 1450 01:01:09.200 --> 01:01:13.443 that problem? How else can we make this part of that problem easier for her too? 1451 01:01:11.926 --> 01:01:13.787 Yes. And that's why you're special. 1452 01:01:13.443 --> 01:01:14.443 Not just 1453 01:01:13.787 --> 01:01:14.787 That that's 1454 01:01:14.158 --> 01:01:17.930 like that's why you'll always have value because you're you're able to kind 1455 01:01:17.930 --> 01:01:21.552 of be be effective in the context of the problem you're solving. 1456 01:01:21.552 --> 01:01:25.183 And you have a million other experiences that lead you to 1457 01:01:25.183 --> 01:01:28.776 a million other conclusions that allow you to like bring a much different, 1458 01:01:28.776 --> 01:01:31.348 bigger, interesting perspective to this stuff. 1459 01:01:31.348 --> 01:01:32.978 And yeah, like if we do all this, 1460 01:01:32.978 --> 01:01:36.190 isn't gonna f in a fun way spill over into here and can't we like, 1461 01:01:36.190 --> 01:01:37.190 you know. 1462 01:01:36.941 --> 01:01:38.531 grab some of that too while we're here, 1463 01:01:38.531 --> 01:01:40.592 or like, doesn't this open the door for this? 1464 01:01:40.592 --> 01:01:43.133 And shouldn't you be thinking about this if we're able to if we're able 1465 01:01:43.133 --> 01:01:44.923 to pull these insights out of this, 1466 01:01:44.923 --> 01:01:48.074 like to me that's and again, like, 1467 01:01:48.074 --> 01:01:49.665 and this is back to our previous conference, 1468 01:01:49.665 --> 01:01:53.006 like you got to the ability to do that because you have 20, 1469 01:01:53.006 --> 01:01:56.587 25 years of of time in the gym learning this, 1470 01:01:56.587 --> 01:01:59.427 thinking like this, you know, building this skill set. 1471 01:01:59.427 --> 01:02:02.128 and I think that's that's the part that like 1472 01:02:02.278 --> 01:02:06.522 Really is super special. And that is the part that I think these tools will struggle 1473 01:02:06.522 --> 01:02:08.173 to approximate for a while. Maybe, 1474 01:02:08.173 --> 01:02:12.207 maybe in time they will, and and there's that kind of challenge down the road. 1475 01:02:12.207 --> 01:02:18.060 But for right now, like the ability for you to like listen to what people need 1476 01:02:18.381 --> 01:02:21.614 and like be able to see down the block at around the corner. 1477 01:02:21.614 --> 01:02:24.266 Like I'm like, I'm like 15 minutes smarter than you. 1478 01:02:24.266 --> 01:02:25.266 I'm not. 1479 01:02:24.997 --> 01:02:27.208 a thousand times I'm fifteen minutes smarter than you. 1480 01:02:27.208 --> 01:02:29.608 I can see a little bit further down the road and I can see around 1481 01:02:29.608 --> 01:02:32.339 the corner because I've done this before or I've have all these reps, 1482 01:02:32.339 --> 01:02:38.880 like the the the the ability to understand what people 1483 01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:42.560 need and then the ability to be that kind of like prognosticator. 1484 01:02:42.560 --> 01:02:45.060 I think you know ensures that you're always valuable. 1485 01:02:45.060 --> 01:02:48.611 And I think again like that's that's what you're trying to like that just trying 1486 01:02:48.611 --> 01:02:50.312 to solve problems. Like that that's 1487 01:02:50.462 --> 01:02:53.773 You know, what do you care if the solution's a website or the solutions 1488 01:02:53.773 --> 01:02:55.323 an app or the solutions of whatever? 1489 01:02:55.323 --> 01:02:56.744 Like you just need this problem solved. 1490 01:02:56.744 --> 01:02:57.784 So, you know, 1491 01:02:57.274 --> 01:02:58.274 Yeah. 1492 01:02:57.934 --> 01:03:00.305 consider doing it this way. I I think it's yeah, 1493 01:03:00.305 --> 01:03:03.886 and I think it's just it's exciting to be a part of the industry when there 1494 01:03:03.886 --> 01:03:09.727 is this it's like there's a whole extra set of paint colors in your paint 1495 01:03:09.727 --> 01:03:12.878 set all of a sudden. Like I've been working with like 18 paints and 1496 01:03:12.878 --> 01:03:15.179 now there's like six more that I've like 1497 01:03:15.329 --> 01:03:16.719 I didn't know those colors existed. 1498 01:03:15.453 --> 01:03:18.674 Yeah. And like and like six 1499 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:18.453 It's it's just a very yeah. 1500 01:03:18.674 --> 01:03:23.235 studio assistants to be stretching canvases and priming paper 1501 01:03:22.137 --> 01:03:24.062 Yeah, right, exactly right. That's exactly right. 1502 01:03:23.315 --> 01:03:28.187 and getting messages out to the buyers and organizing shows and sol you know, 1503 01:03:24.062 --> 01:03:28.062 That's exactly right. Right. Yeah, 1504 01:03:28.062 --> 01:03:30.718 yeah, yeah. Yeah, dog, all that stuff. 1505 01:03:28.187 --> 01:03:30.777 submitting port like the amount yeah, 1506 01:03:30.718 --> 01:03:31.831 Right. Yeah. 1507 01:03:30.777 --> 01:03:32.078 the amount of help 1508 01:03:32.228 --> 01:03:35.029 that and again for solopreneurs, 1509 01:03:35.029 --> 01:03:37.640 for in individual artists, you know, 1510 01:03:36.035 --> 01:03:39.807 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah. 1511 01:03:37.640 --> 01:03:39.900 small teams, it's 1512 01:03:40.100 --> 01:03:41.701 so powerful. I think 1513 01:03:41.771 --> 01:03:42.771 Yes. 1514 01:03:42.117 --> 01:03:45.658 For the big enterprises that already have like so much complexity 1515 01:03:44.779 --> 01:03:45.779 Yes, yes, yes. 1516 01:03:45.658 --> 01:03:48.197 baked into them, it's gonna take a while to 1517 01:03:48.093 --> 01:03:49.093 Agreed. 1518 01:03:48.563 --> 01:03:51.174 I agree. And we and Pine Works would agree with you too. 1519 01:03:51.174 --> 01:03:52.174 I think like that's 1520 01:03:51.578 --> 01:03:52.578 Yeah. 1521 01:03:52.184 --> 01:03:53.725 in our limited amount of, you know, 1522 01:03:53.725 --> 01:03:55.895 we've been doing this for like nine months. 1523 01:03:55.895 --> 01:03:58.535 So bear with me. But everybody's been doing it for nine months. 1524 01:03:58.535 --> 01:04:01.075 So that's how much we know. In our experience, 1525 01:04:01.075 --> 01:04:02.786 if you're an individual person, 1526 01:04:02.786 --> 01:04:06.637 like one-shotting a cool thing in Claude, 1527 01:04:06.637 --> 01:04:08.437 one-shotting a cool thing at ChatGPT, 1528 01:04:08.437 --> 01:04:11.298 it's probably the way to go. Like you're one person. 1529 01:04:11.298 --> 01:04:14.529 Those kind of tools are pretty appropriate to you having. 1530 01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:17.681 five administrative assistants that do a variety of things. 1531 01:04:17.681 --> 01:04:19.603 Like you could do a lot of that just in ChatGPT, 1532 01:04:19.603 --> 01:04:21.594 just in Claude. If you're in enterprise, 1533 01:04:21.594 --> 01:04:28.029 there's a scale and a vastness and there's an enterprise kind of it's Conway's law. 1534 01:04:28.029 --> 01:04:31.912 Like the the nature of the environment kind of forces itself on 1535 01:04:31.912 --> 01:04:36.526 the tools and process. Like they're gonna like they'll use AI tools in Salesforce. 1536 01:04:36.526 --> 01:04:40.839 They'll use AI tools in massive enterprise software because that is 1537 01:04:40.989 --> 01:04:42.900 how business is done at that kind of level. 1538 01:04:42.900 --> 01:04:44.732 The agentic stuff that you and I are talking about, 1539 01:04:44.732 --> 01:04:49.556 we've found like the the right size for that is like a team 1540 01:04:49.556 --> 01:04:52.498 of five to nine or ten people. 1541 01:04:52.498 --> 01:04:55.881 Like that's kind of the sweet spot for where these agentic tools become really 1542 01:04:56.031 --> 01:04:59.993 interesting and valuable because there's enough complexity that it's 1543 01:04:59.993 --> 01:05:02.215 not possible for ever for one person to know what the other 1544 01:05:02.215 --> 01:05:05.687 six people they're working on or to have like a completely clear view 1545 01:05:05.687 --> 01:05:06.687 of what they're working on. 1546 01:05:06.702 --> 01:05:08.953 But it's few enough people that you can define that. 1547 01:05:08.953 --> 01:05:10.893 It's few enough people that you can figure out, 1548 01:05:10.893 --> 01:05:14.065 like, okay, the Tracey puzzle piece and the Joe puzzle piece and 1549 01:05:14.065 --> 01:05:16.175 the Amanda puzzle piece and the Jamie puzzle piece, 1550 01:05:16.175 --> 01:05:18.366 like this is how they all have to interact with one another. 1551 01:05:18.366 --> 01:05:21.096 And I can map all that out. And then I can start to build systems 1552 01:05:21.096 --> 01:05:23.447 or process or whatever that, you know, 1553 01:05:23.447 --> 01:05:26.288 whatever, make it possible for Tracey to know what Joe is working on, 1554 01:05:26.288 --> 01:05:29.379 or make it possible for Joe to know that these are the requirements that Tracey has. 1555 01:05:29.849 --> 01:05:34.473 In a in a small discrete set of people who have related jobs, 1556 01:05:34.473 --> 01:05:38.296 I think that that's where we're seeing the most traction with these agentic little 1557 01:05:38.296 --> 01:05:39.527 models and these kinds of things. 1558 01:05:39.527 --> 01:05:40.828 I think to your point, once 1559 01:05:40.379 --> 01:05:41.379 Totally. 1560 01:05:40.828 --> 01:05:45.492 you get into enterprise and you're at Comcast or you're someplace like that, 1561 01:05:45.492 --> 01:05:49.325 I think that there's like there's there is an enterprise solution to this that tends 1562 01:05:49.325 --> 01:05:53.058 to be more palatable and more the love language of those kinds of larger 1563 01:05:53.058 --> 01:05:54.109 and now if you're like a 1564 01:05:54.259 --> 01:05:57.931 team within Comcast, if you're like a six-person team in a big environment. 1565 01:05:57.931 --> 01:05:59.472 Now we're back talking about this again. 1566 01:05:59.472 --> 01:06:03.633 Like your team might need the but yeah there is there and and again like this 1567 01:06:03.633 --> 01:06:05.284 is a strong opinion softly held. 1568 01:06:05.284 --> 01:06:06.284 I don't 1569 01:06:05.944 --> 01:06:06.944 Mm-hmm. 1570 01:06:06.425 --> 01:06:09.946 I please don't like take this as like a white paper I'm writing or anything. 1571 01:06:09.946 --> 01:06:13.068 This is just our observed behavior has been that like 1572 01:06:12.533 --> 01:06:13.533 Yeah. 1573 01:06:13.218 --> 01:06:16.890 there is kind of an in the middle kind of sweet spot where these kinds 1574 01:06:16.890 --> 01:06:20.492 of things make sense related to the way that people in a team 1575 01:06:20.492 --> 01:06:21.492 of seven work together. 1576 01:06:21.633 --> 01:06:25.173 It's like a human thing. Like the way that like I mean you and I talk about this 1577 01:06:25.173 --> 01:06:27.086 a million times. The on the agency side, 1578 01:06:27.086 --> 01:06:30.318 there's these breakpoints of complexity that require you to change 1579 01:06:30.318 --> 01:06:33.298 the structure of your agency. If you're like a solo person, 1580 01:06:33.298 --> 01:06:36.420 that's one kind of company. If you're a four person company, 1581 01:06:36.420 --> 01:06:37.631 that's a different kind of company. 1582 01:06:37.631 --> 01:06:39.292 When you get to like eight or nine, 1583 01:06:39.292 --> 01:06:40.862 that's where you need like a project manager. 1584 01:06:40.862 --> 01:06:44.774 Because now there's enough people doing different things and kind 1585 01:06:44.774 --> 01:06:48.116 of operating separately that you need like an observable layer on top 1586 01:06:48.116 --> 01:06:49.777 of that stuff that you need a PM. 1587 01:06:49.777 --> 01:06:50.777 Like 1588 01:06:50.111 --> 01:06:51.252 We're talking about the same thing here. 1589 01:06:51.252 --> 01:06:54.924 Like if you get greater than I don't know that these kinds of tools 1590 01:06:55.124 --> 01:06:57.405 are as powerful as they could be, 1591 01:06:57.405 --> 01:06:58.804 but if you're talking about five, 1592 01:06:58.122 --> 01:06:59.122 Well, I I do think 1593 01:06:58.804 --> 01:06:59.804 six, seven 1594 01:06:59.234 --> 01:07:00.234 people, yeah. 1595 01:07:00.043 --> 01:07:01.825 yeah. And I think once you get to enterprise, 1596 01:07:01.825 --> 01:07:05.928 anything that they're doing is gonna be so locked down in terms of talking about it, 1597 01:07:05.082 --> 01:07:06.816 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 1598 01:07:05.928 --> 01:07:07.119 right? Because if they're building 1599 01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:10.302 their own secret sauce using agentic tools, 1600 01:07:10.302 --> 01:07:13.324 that's a huge competitive advantage that 1601 01:07:12.550 --> 01:07:13.550 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1602 01:07:13.485 --> 01:07:17.608 you're not gonna hear about versus the platforms that would come out and be like, 1603 01:07:17.608 --> 01:07:18.829 well, you better get on it too, 1604 01:07:18.829 --> 01:07:20.581 because that's what everybody else is using. 1605 01:07:20.581 --> 01:07:21.581 I think we're 1606 01:07:20.866 --> 01:07:21.866 Yeah. 1607 01:07:21.361 --> 01:07:25.365 gonna see a shift away from that because you you don't have competitive advantage. 1608 01:07:25.515 --> 01:07:28.297 If everyone's already using Salesforce and now you are too. 1609 01:07:28.134 --> 01:07:30.329 Right. Yeah. Yep. 1610 01:07:28.297 --> 01:07:30.489 so I think it'll 1611 01:07:30.489 --> 01:07:35.133 be it'll be interesting how the how the software development moves internally 1612 01:07:35.133 --> 01:07:37.986 in enterprises and what that does to the competitive space. 1613 01:07:37.986 --> 01:07:39.067 But 1614 01:07:38.589 --> 01:07:39.589 Mm. 1615 01:07:39.067 --> 01:07:41.709 for for what it can unlock for the smaller teams, 1616 01:07:41.709 --> 01:07:46.400 I agree, it's huge. And I I think so you're seeing people reach 1617 01:07:46.400 --> 01:07:49.943 out to Pine Works with are you seeing people reach out because they know that they 1618 01:07:49.943 --> 01:07:51.705 want this kind of solution, or are you 1619 01:07:51.855 --> 01:07:54.699 kind of identifying the need and then proposing it. 1620 01:07:53.682 --> 01:07:55.604 Yeah, the latter. The latter. We're 1621 01:07:54.699 --> 01:07:55.699 Yeah. 1622 01:07:55.604 --> 01:07:59.676 not at that point yet. We're not at the point yet where people identify that this 1623 01:07:59.676 --> 01:08:01.658 could be the solve for the problem they have. 1624 01:08:01.658 --> 01:08:04.620 We we're basically having our traditional, 1625 01:08:04.620 --> 01:08:09.514 can you come in from a software development perspective and build some tools 1626 01:08:09.514 --> 01:08:11.595 and help us achieve our goals? 1627 01:08:11.595 --> 01:08:14.147 You know, and in that conversation, 1628 01:08:14.147 --> 01:08:16.298 then we're kind of opening the door up to like, 1629 01:08:16.298 --> 01:08:20.332 I don't know, like maybe this makes sense to build this kind of 1630 01:08:20.482 --> 01:08:22.524 Agentic approach. It's not every time either. 1631 01:08:22.524 --> 01:08:24.115 Like we just did a whole project with Topgolf, 1632 01:08:24.115 --> 01:08:28.418 and the only agentic tools we used was Ryan writing code with like a 1633 01:08:28.418 --> 01:08:30.550 you know code assistant. Like that's there's nothing 1634 01:08:30.087 --> 01:08:31.087 Right. 1635 01:08:30.700 --> 01:08:32.532 agentic in the heart of that work. 1636 01:08:32.532 --> 01:08:34.694 But I do think but we're hoping. 1637 01:08:34.694 --> 01:08:37.706 I mean, that's the reason why we're we have the the podcast. 1638 01:08:37.706 --> 01:08:39.557 that's the reason why we're trying to publish about it more. 1639 01:08:39.557 --> 01:08:45.131 Like the trick is incepting this possibility into people's brains and they realize, 1640 01:08:45.922 --> 01:08:47.442 That could work for me. I Anthony, 1641 01:08:47.442 --> 01:08:49.223 he might have done this when we were together, 1642 01:08:49.223 --> 01:08:51.107 but like I think he did do this. 1643 01:08:51.107 --> 01:08:54.629 But Anthony does this thing where he talks about the first agent he ever built. 1644 01:08:54.629 --> 01:08:57.902 And it was basically like a podcast producer for his podcast. 1645 01:08:57.902 --> 01:08:59.574 He has a sp okay, 1646 01:08:58.288 --> 01:08:59.288 yeah, I remember that. Yeah. 1647 01:08:59.574 --> 01:09:02.436 remember? So he has a space podcast that has this massive following. 1648 01:09:02.436 --> 01:09:05.218 Everybody, if you like space, you should check out main engine cutoff. 1649 01:09:05.218 --> 01:09:10.862 It's insane. but Anthony has he's up to episode 935 or something like that. 1650 01:09:10.862 --> 01:09:13.013 It's crazy how many of these podcasts he's done. 1651 01:09:13.834 --> 01:09:16.545 But he had a workflow for preparing for the podcast. 1652 01:09:16.545 --> 01:09:19.178 He had R he had RSS feeds he subscribed to. 1653 01:09:19.178 --> 01:09:21.319 He had newsletters and emails and all. 1654 01:09:21.319 --> 01:09:24.821 He would collect all this news and then he would create a rundown and kind 1655 01:09:24.821 --> 01:09:27.652 of a script for the podcast. And then he would record the podcast. 1656 01:09:27.652 --> 01:09:30.725 And he taught his agent, Hayden, 1657 01:09:30.725 --> 01:09:35.457 to do all this work for him. So then Hayden goes through and does the research, 1658 01:09:35.457 --> 01:09:39.690 pulls the RSS feeds together, pulls all the information and and creates exactly 1659 01:09:39.911 --> 01:09:42.132 the same kind of document Anthony used to create. 1660 01:09:42.281 --> 01:09:46.073 But now Anthony doesn't spend six hours creating this document for every podcast. 1661 01:09:46.073 --> 01:09:50.004 Hayden does it and has gotten so good at it that it's like not only 1662 01:09:50.004 --> 01:09:52.756 is it indistinguishable from the ones that Anthony used to make, 1663 01:09:52.756 --> 01:09:58.557 but now Hayden is like proposing new people to follow and you know scouting things 1664 01:09:58.557 --> 01:09:59.687 and like bringing novel stuff. 1665 01:09:59.687 --> 01:10:04.009 So the the magic of that example that I've seen is most people we talk 1666 01:10:04.009 --> 01:10:05.810 to doesn't they don't have a podcast. 1667 01:10:05.810 --> 01:10:08.370 Like none of this makes sense for is germane to what they do. 1668 01:10:08.521 --> 01:10:09.521 But once 1669 01:10:08.545 --> 01:10:09.545 Right. 1670 01:10:08.920 --> 01:10:14.295 you describe like the blocking and tackling of what Anthony used to do 1671 01:10:14.375 --> 01:10:19.039 and now what this thing does and how much time it saves Anthony and 1672 01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:23.623 how much more opportunity it creates because it's actually pitching guests 1673 01:10:23.623 --> 01:10:26.870 for the podcast, like you can see the ha that happen in people's lives. 1674 01:10:26.870 --> 01:10:27.937 Like, well, I don't a podcast, 1675 01:10:27.937 --> 01:10:31.999 but I do have this other thing that I have to work on that is fairly routine. 1676 01:10:31.999 --> 01:10:34.761 It's a little time consuming. I have a way I like to do it. 1677 01:10:34.911 --> 01:10:37.162 If I could teach an agent to do this for me, 1678 01:10:37.162 --> 01:10:39.832 my God, that's like two and a half hours every week. 1679 01:10:39.832 --> 01:10:41.453 I I I would still get what I needed, 1680 01:10:41.453 --> 01:10:43.583 but I wouldn't have to spend the time doing it anymore. 1681 01:10:43.583 --> 01:10:46.955 Like that's the challenge is helping give these stories to people where they 1682 01:10:46.955 --> 01:10:49.335 can identify themselves and then they can say, 1683 01:10:49.335 --> 01:10:52.996 like, ooh, like I want a version of that for my team because you know, 1684 01:10:52.996 --> 01:10:55.627 the other thing that we like to say is like if your job has spreadsheets in it, 1685 01:10:55.627 --> 01:10:56.627 this is for you. 1686 01:10:56.717 --> 01:10:57.717 Yeah. 1687 01:10:57.135 --> 01:10:59.915 Like, like if if your job involves spreadsheets, 1688 01:10:59.915 --> 01:11:01.766 baby do we got a solution for you? 1689 01:11:01.751 --> 01:11:02.751 Come talk 1690 01:11:01.766 --> 01:11:02.766 Because 1691 01:11:02.372 --> 01:11:04.645 to us right away. I don't know, 1692 01:11:02.886 --> 01:11:05.307 Yeah, 'cause like yeah, th this is this is 1693 01:11:04.645 --> 01:11:05.645 some people are some 1694 01:11:05.416 --> 01:11:06.999 people are attached to their spreadsheets though, 1695 01:11:06.999 --> 01:11:07.999 Joe. 1696 01:11:07.359 --> 01:11:10.231 They're never gonna go away. We're never gonna take your spreadsheets from you. 1697 01:11:10.231 --> 01:11:13.262 I promise. I promise. And they'll be exactly the way you like them, 1698 01:11:13.262 --> 01:11:15.544 and you'll have all your columns the way you like them and all that. 1699 01:11:15.544 --> 01:11:20.527 Like, God forbid. But on top of the spreadsheet, 1700 01:11:15.764 --> 01:11:18.501 I don't know. I think some people yeah. 1701 01:11:18.501 --> 01:11:21.610 I hear ya though. I hear ya. Yeah. 1702 01:11:20.527 --> 01:11:21.857 though, once you have the and 1703 01:11:21.857 --> 01:11:24.214 I think that that's you and I talked about this months ago, 1704 01:11:24.214 --> 01:11:28.240 I feel like. If you have really interesting data, 1705 01:11:28.240 --> 01:11:32.923 IP data, something, some some nugget of cool. 1706 01:11:33.073 --> 01:11:34.693 Then you can make interesting things with it. 1707 01:11:34.693 --> 01:11:37.134 So you have to have whatever, in this case, 1708 01:11:37.134 --> 01:11:40.434 years of customer data to build this thing on top of, 1709 01:11:40.434 --> 01:11:44.297 or you have to have hours of Granola transcripts to build this thing on top of. 1710 01:11:44.297 --> 01:11:47.618 You have to have this spreadsheet that you spent two years creating that 1711 01:11:47.618 --> 01:11:49.668 has all of your hopes and dreams in it and all your cool stuff. 1712 01:11:49.668 --> 01:11:51.358 Like, if you've taken the time, 1713 01:11:51.358 --> 01:11:53.369 if you have those kinds of resources, 1714 01:11:53.369 --> 01:11:57.850 then building these kinds of custom software layers on top of them. 1715 01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:00.341 It's incredibly powerful because you've done the hard part. 1716 01:12:00.341 --> 01:12:03.624 You've created the repository of all this information. 1717 01:12:03.624 --> 01:12:08.277 You've created, you know, eighteen years of of white papers and 1718 01:12:08.120 --> 01:12:09.321 Yeah, you you've got 1719 01:12:08.537 --> 01:12:10.288 now you're gonna make it like a knowledge center. 1720 01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:13.983 a lot of ingredients, a lot of colors to give the palette, 1721 01:12:13.414 --> 01:12:15.072 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 1722 01:12:13.983 --> 01:12:15.130 right? But I 1723 01:12:15.130 --> 01:12:17.151 think one I think what you brought up a good point, 1724 01:12:17.151 --> 01:12:21.132 which is that a lot of times people just they don't they don't know how 1725 01:12:21.132 --> 01:12:23.113 it could be applied. And so you 1726 01:12:22.420 --> 01:12:23.420 Yeah, exactly. 1727 01:12:23.113 --> 01:12:26.985 I think a a great follow-up would just be a conversation. 1728 01:12:26.985 --> 01:12:28.826 Maybe we could just brainstorm like, 1729 01:12:28.826 --> 01:12:32.248 hey, well you could you could do this or you could do that. 1730 01:12:32.248 --> 01:12:34.269 if you have this kind of problem, 1731 01:12:32.591 --> 01:12:36.251 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 1732 01:12:34.269 --> 01:12:35.770 you could solve it this way. 1733 01:12:36.318 --> 01:12:42.295 Almost just like a like a brainstorm on all the different ways that teams could 1734 01:12:42.315 --> 01:12:46.090 solve certain problems. So I just don't think that it's automatic yet 1735 01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:49.673 agreed. It's 100%. It's not enough, 1736 01:12:47.372 --> 01:12:49.785 to look to these tools for a sol f 1737 01:12:49.785 --> 01:12:50.785 yeah. 1738 01:12:50.135 --> 01:12:51.897 it's not observed enough behavior yet. 1739 01:12:51.897 --> 01:12:53.408 You know, it's not like you haven't 1740 01:12:52.075 --> 01:12:53.267 Yeah. Yeah. 1741 01:12:53.408 --> 01:12:54.675 seen it enough, you haven't heard of it enough, 1742 01:12:54.675 --> 01:12:56.446 you haven't peeked over someone's shoulder and seen it. 1743 01:12:56.446 --> 01:13:00.263 There's there's a novelty to this that is like a barrier to entry where it's kind 1744 01:13:00.263 --> 01:13:02.184 of hard to imagine, to your point, 1745 01:13:02.184 --> 01:13:05.386 ways this could apply. I I do think there's a little bit of like telling these 1746 01:13:05.386 --> 01:13:06.747 stories and sharing these examples, 1747 01:13:06.747 --> 01:13:08.399 and they're analogous in certain ways, 1748 01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:10.339 and then there's a little bit of an unlock that can happen. 1749 01:13:10.339 --> 01:13:13.162 But I think you're right. There is like just a delta between 1750 01:13:13.312 --> 01:13:15.564 What can be done and what people perceive can be done. 1751 01:13:15.564 --> 01:13:17.194 That is, I think that's like, you know, 1752 01:13:17.194 --> 01:13:19.656 that that's what the next year looks like is kind of, 1753 01:13:19.656 --> 01:13:22.217 you know, shortening the gap between those two things. 1754 01:13:22.217 --> 01:13:25.720 And, you know, there'll be a day where someone reaches out to Pine Works 1755 01:13:25.870 --> 01:13:28.212 for an agentic project expressly, 1756 01:13:28.212 --> 01:13:30.553 not hey, you've been working like in our cases, 1757 01:13:30.553 --> 01:13:31.824 everybody we've been doing this with, 1758 01:13:31.824 --> 01:13:34.656 we've been working with them on a variety of other projects 1759 01:13:34.806 --> 01:13:37.478 for somewhere between six months and two years. 1760 01:13:37.478 --> 01:13:40.228 And then we're in there and we've earned trust and we know what they're doing and 1761 01:13:40.378 --> 01:13:41.959 And we know what needs to be done. 1762 01:13:41.959 --> 01:13:46.769 And several months into this, we're able to to your point, 1763 01:13:46.769 --> 01:13:51.874 we're able to brainstorm and propose like a kind of kooky seeming agentic solution 1764 01:13:52.024 --> 01:13:56.125 that is the unlock that turns into this other like cool project 1765 01:13:56.125 --> 01:13:57.847 or product they didn't know they needed, 1766 01:13:57.847 --> 01:14:01.288 or you know, this this capability they didn't know they could have, 1767 01:14:01.288 --> 01:14:02.699 frankly. Like I didn't know I could have that. 1768 01:14:02.849 --> 01:14:08.127 When when you have been able to present an idea that they hadn't necessarily 1769 01:14:08.127 --> 01:14:09.629 considered and then deliver on it, 1770 01:14:09.629 --> 01:14:11.561 do you find that then they're like, 1771 01:14:11.561 --> 01:14:13.685 Well, what else? Where else? Yeah. 1772 01:14:12.436 --> 01:14:14.487 Yeah, 100%. That's exactly the case. 1773 01:14:13.685 --> 01:14:15.157 Yeah. 1774 01:14:14.487 --> 01:14:15.487 It's so 1775 01:14:15.388 --> 01:14:17.810 in my in our one client that we built the I mean, 1776 01:14:17.810 --> 01:14:19.811 I have to be careful about how much I disclose, 1777 01:14:19.811 --> 01:14:22.683 but I would say yes. I would say that on the one like number one, 1778 01:14:22.683 --> 01:14:26.775 you know, once a department or team has this kind of capability, 1779 01:14:26.775 --> 01:14:29.626 there is a FOMO kind of thing that happens. 1780 01:14:29.626 --> 01:14:33.559 Or there is like a there is kind of like a your thing connects to my thing. 1781 01:14:33.559 --> 01:14:35.320 Look what your thing looks like and look what my thing looks like. 1782 01:14:35.320 --> 01:14:39.373 So it does kind of spread like kudzu through an organization when like 1783 01:14:39.523 --> 01:14:42.224 One team gets propped up by it, 1784 01:14:42.224 --> 01:14:44.805 other people want it too. We had a great example. 1785 01:14:44.805 --> 01:14:47.106 one of our clients, I forget, 1786 01:14:47.106 --> 01:14:49.357 I forget I Anthony tells the story better than I do because I wasn't 1787 01:14:49.357 --> 01:14:53.207 in this meeting, but there was effectively this instance where people were talking 1788 01:14:53.207 --> 01:14:57.519 about how great it would be if they could like just, 1789 01:14:57.519 --> 01:15:02.372 you know, unlock this customer data and the CEO turned to our client and said, 1790 01:15:02.372 --> 01:15:03.696 like, is it time? Do you want to show them? 1791 01:15:03.696 --> 01:15:05.662 And then like he like went off about. 1792 01:15:05.812 --> 01:15:09.285 how much this like sales enablement stuff has so there is a little bit 1793 01:15:09.285 --> 01:15:13.818 of like once you see it, there is like a prairie fire that happens of like, 1794 01:15:13.818 --> 01:15:16.370 ooh, like I want, you know, my version of that. 1795 01:15:16.370 --> 01:15:18.412 Or I, you know, there I think that is the case. 1796 01:15:18.412 --> 01:15:19.873 And and and again, it's like 1797 01:15:20.023 --> 01:15:23.085 Even I'm thinking there's one project you could argue we started out. 1798 01:15:23.085 --> 01:15:26.547 We we the first project we did was an agentic project. 1799 01:15:26.547 --> 01:15:30.349 But even in that case, we had had four false starts on versions 1800 01:15:30.349 --> 01:15:33.741 of non-agentic projects with this person while they were figuring 1801 01:15:33.741 --> 01:15:36.863 out funding for their little for their like app they were creating. 1802 01:15:36.863 --> 01:15:41.666 And then we kind of earned the right over three or four sales conversations over 1803 01:15:41.666 --> 01:15:43.675 the past year to then say, like, 1804 01:15:43.675 --> 01:15:45.606 we can actually do this agentically. 1805 01:15:45.756 --> 01:15:47.319 And that is gonna be the first project we worked on. 1806 01:15:47.319 --> 01:15:50.643 But we didn't start there. Like we started with a bunch of other false starts before 1807 01:15:50.643 --> 01:15:53.457 we got to that being a possible solution. 1808 01:15:53.457 --> 01:15:54.940 Yeah. 1809 01:15:53.881 --> 01:15:55.101 Yeah. Yeah. I 1810 01:15:55.101 --> 01:15:58.422 think it's it's still it's still new and still evolving. 1811 01:15:57.908 --> 01:16:00.966 Yeah. And a little scary. Like not for nothing. 1812 01:15:58.422 --> 01:16:01.842 But yeah, yeah, 1813 01:16:00.966 --> 01:16:03.624 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 1814 01:16:01.842 --> 01:16:03.324 a little a little scary for sure. 1815 01:16:04.144 --> 01:16:05.684 but I'm in the same same boat. 1816 01:16:05.684 --> 01:16:10.035 I'm just like super excited. It's it's like I have more toys than I know what 1817 01:16:10.035 --> 01:16:12.976 to do with right now. And so that's that's why I have 1818 01:16:10.336 --> 01:16:12.828 Yeah yeah. Yeah. Yep. 1819 01:16:12.976 --> 01:16:14.407 to be like close the computer, 1820 01:16:14.407 --> 01:16:16.698 go touch grass, as they say, you know, 1821 01:16:14.910 --> 01:16:16.820 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1822 01:16:16.698 --> 01:16:17.748 like get away from it all. 1823 01:16:16.820 --> 01:16:18.375 Yeah. Yeah. 1824 01:16:18.448 --> 01:16:20.109 but it's super exciting. Well, 1825 01:16:20.109 --> 01:16:21.339 listen, thank you for 1826 01:16:21.489 --> 01:16:23.865 just catching up on all this stuff with me publicly. 1827 01:16:23.557 --> 01:16:24.557 My pleasure. 1828 01:16:24.606 --> 01:16:28.756 always nice to share. I it's like we should talk about this on the internet, 1829 01:16:28.756 --> 01:16:30.339 right? The podcast that you guys are doing. 1830 01:16:29.729 --> 01:16:31.834 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anytime, 1831 01:16:31.834 --> 01:16:34.158 any place, man. You you you snap your fingers, 1832 01:16:34.158 --> 01:16:35.158 I come running. 1833 01:16:34.879 --> 01:16:36.570 Well, I appreciate it. As always, 1834 01:16:36.570 --> 01:16:41.283 I love our conversations and I hope that anyone that listens and made 1835 01:16:41.283 --> 01:16:43.524 it to the end here has has 1836 01:16:42.912 --> 01:16:43.912 Ha ha. 1837 01:16:43.585 --> 01:16:46.287 enjoyed it. It's a long one, which they always are. 1838 01:16:46.018 --> 01:16:47.018 Yeah. 1839 01:16:47.788 --> 01:16:50.240 And I'll post I'll you know, 1840 01:16:50.240 --> 01:16:53.793 post links to stuff to you on the recap on the website. 1841 01:16:53.793 --> 01:16:57.236 So anybody who's looking to track down Joe for either the work he's doing 1842 01:16:57.236 --> 01:16:59.748 at Pine Works or his consulting through clutch, 1843 01:16:59.748 --> 01:17:03.471 please do. I can't recommend him. 1844 01:17:03.621 --> 01:17:05.902 more highly for what he 1845 01:17:05.400 --> 01:17:06.400 Ha ha. 1846 01:17:05.902 --> 01:17:10.566 does. So and I'm a and a I'm a I'm not just a what do I say? 1847 01:17:10.566 --> 01:17:17.170 I'm not just a what is the character Yeah Yeah 1848 01:17:11.215 --> 01:17:14.377 All right. Not a not just a I'm not just a member, 1849 01:17:14.377 --> 01:17:15.971 I'm the president. Yeah, totally. 1850 01:17:15.971 --> 01:17:18.474 Thank you, Trace. You're the best. 1851 01:17:18.474 --> 01:17:21.198 You're the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1852 01:17:18.651 --> 01:17:20.212 something something along those lines. 1853 01:17:20.212 --> 01:17:22.153 all right. Well thanks again, Joe. 1854 01:17:21.198 --> 01:17:23.140 Thanks, 1855 01:17:22.153 --> 01:17:23.153 Take care. 1856 01:17:23.140 --> 01:17:23.583 Trace.