1 00:00:00,122 --> 00:00:04,796 And I think part of it is developing the skill set to know when to use it, 2 00:00:04,796 --> 00:00:06,458 how to use it, how much to use, 3 00:00:06,458 --> 00:00:11,073 you know, when not to use it, how to basically like making it a a tool 4 00:00:11,133 --> 00:00:15,257 in your toolkit, not just some kind of like red button you smash every once 5 00:00:15,257 --> 00:00:18,790 in a while. Like AI that like there needs to be a little bit more 6 00:00:18,790 --> 00:00:19,500 dexterity. 7 00:00:27,983 --> 00:00:32,994 Hello everyone. This is Tracey Halvorsen with another episode of Escape Velocity. 8 00:00:32,994 --> 00:00:35,745 It has been a minute. Life has been crazy, 9 00:00:35,745 --> 00:00:40,607 and I'm really excited to be having this conversation today with 10 00:00:40,607 --> 00:00:43,297 my friend and colleague Joe Rinaldi. 11 00:00:43,297 --> 00:00:48,573 a little bit about Joe. I think I became aware 12 00:00:48,573 --> 00:00:55,271 of Joe at least probably 15 years ago when we were competing against 13 00:00:54,919 --> 00:00:56,152 Yeah. Yeah. 14 00:00:55,651 --> 00:00:56,651 each other. 15 00:00:56,371 --> 00:01:02,195 In our agency positions. And then we met up at one of the very first 16 00:01:02,231 --> 00:01:06,387 Bureau of Digital Events, the original owner camp or whatever it 17 00:01:04,429 --> 00:01:08,587 Mm-hmm. Yep, yep, yep. The OG owner camp. 18 00:01:06,387 --> 00:01:08,478 was called back then, at 19 00:01:08,778 --> 00:01:12,360 the OG owner camp. And we became fast friends from 20 00:01:11,813 --> 00:01:12,813 We did. 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,872 that point on. And I remember you'd send me messages every now and then, 22 00:01:14,872 --> 00:01:16,993 like, God damn it, or like, sorry. 23 00:01:17,881 --> 00:01:18,881 Ha ha ha. 24 00:01:18,854 --> 00:01:20,856 as we continued to compete against each other, 25 00:01:20,856 --> 00:01:23,267 but I loved that spirit of camaraderie that we 26 00:01:21,037 --> 00:01:23,354 Uh-huh. 27 00:01:23,481 --> 00:01:24,481 that we 28 00:01:23,761 --> 00:01:27,522 established and have maintained all the way through and fast forward to today, 29 00:01:27,522 --> 00:01:30,253 we continue to work with each other, 30 00:01:30,253 --> 00:01:32,443 not compete against each other, 31 00:01:32,443 --> 00:01:34,944 but we do a lot of I you know, 32 00:01:34,944 --> 00:01:37,815 we're we're in cahoots in a lot of ways. 33 00:01:37,815 --> 00:01:44,427 and so Joe, just d give everybody a a download on you, 34 00:01:44,427 --> 00:01:46,878 what you're all about, and we'll take it from there. 35 00:01:47,028 --> 00:01:49,730 Sure. Yeah. So I I would agree with your assessment. 36 00:01:49,730 --> 00:01:54,385 We had a real cheers versus Gary's Old Town Tavern kind of vibe back in the day, 37 00:01:54,385 --> 00:01:56,747 which is a very dated reference and we'll 38 00:01:55,007 --> 00:01:56,007 Yes. 39 00:01:56,807 --> 00:01:58,939 will explain that I'm 50 years old to everybody. 40 00:01:58,939 --> 00:02:00,900 but yeah, now now we're fast, 41 00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:02,741 we're best buddies, and we work on a variety of things. 42 00:02:02,741 --> 00:02:04,573 And I think actually, Trace, the way you describe it, 43 00:02:04,573 --> 00:02:07,104 like because we work in a variety of ways together, 44 00:02:07,104 --> 00:02:11,388 that is very like descriptive of the weird role and job that I have, 45 00:02:11,388 --> 00:02:12,389 where I have like, 46 00:02:12,539 --> 00:02:15,611 Lots of different Lego pieces that I fit into in what I 47 00:02:15,260 --> 00:02:16,260 Yeah. 48 00:02:15,611 --> 00:02:20,886 do these days. so half of my time roughly is spent running what I call Clutch, 49 00:02:20,886 --> 00:02:24,278 which is my biz dev consulting company where I work with agencies 50 00:02:24,278 --> 00:02:25,743 and small teams and individuals. 51 00:02:25,743 --> 00:02:28,512 I basically help them level up their biz dev process. 52 00:02:28,512 --> 00:02:30,505 You know, when I was competing with you, 53 00:02:30,505 --> 00:02:33,886 I was the biz dev guy, and that's kind of where my background lies. 54 00:02:33,886 --> 00:02:38,939 So for the past 10 years, I've worked with nearly a hundred agencies helping them 55 00:02:38,939 --> 00:02:39,939 just kind of 56 00:02:39,710 --> 00:02:44,203 level up and evolve and change and grow their biz dev process. 57 00:02:44,203 --> 00:02:48,366 while doing that, it became very apparent to me that when 58 00:02:48,366 --> 00:02:51,528 I wasn't actually selling the clients while teaching, 59 00:02:51,528 --> 00:02:53,369 my knives were getting very dull. 60 00:02:53,369 --> 00:02:59,022 Like I was losing the thread of like how challenging it is and how much it changes. 61 00:02:59,022 --> 00:03:02,495 And and I worked briefly for about three years with SuperFriendly with 62 00:03:02,495 --> 00:03:04,196 Dan Mall and I was his biz dev guy. 63 00:03:04,196 --> 00:03:05,487 And that really opened my eyes that like 64 00:03:05,637 --> 00:03:07,528 For me to be good at teaching people how to do business, 65 00:03:07,528 --> 00:03:09,079 I need to sell directly to clients. 66 00:03:09,079 --> 00:03:11,160 Like I need to not be the some kind of like, 67 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:12,661 you know, I don't do it anymore. 68 00:03:12,661 --> 00:03:13,932 I just talk about it all the time. 69 00:03:13,932 --> 00:03:17,444 and in service of that, and then as like the stars lined up, 70 00:03:17,444 --> 00:03:21,366 past four years, I've now kind of been part of Pine Works, 71 00:03:21,366 --> 00:03:25,247 which is a bunch of old happy cog friends back from the days when I used 72 00:03:25,247 --> 00:03:28,299 to compete with you. a bunch of those folks getting together 73 00:03:28,299 --> 00:03:30,000 and doing projects together again. 74 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,442 a little bit more on the software development side with some design. 75 00:03:33,442 --> 00:03:34,442 It's, you know. 76 00:03:34,152 --> 00:03:38,555 I feel like back in the Happy Cog days it was probably like 70-30 design focus 77 00:03:38,705 --> 00:03:40,216 and development. This is probably the opposite. 78 00:03:40,216 --> 00:03:44,649 It's probably like 70% focused on software development and 30% focused on design. 79 00:03:45,046 --> 00:03:46,046 Yeah. 80 00:03:45,540 --> 00:03:46,800 but that's how I split my time now. 81 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,143 I split my time either working with agencies to help coach them or or, 82 00:03:51,143 --> 00:03:52,834 you know, live in the trenches, 83 00:03:52,834 --> 00:03:55,856 consult with them and write RFP responses with them and do all 84 00:03:55,856 --> 00:03:58,508 the blocking and tackling, or I'm over here and I'm 85 00:03:58,658 --> 00:04:02,701 selling a big project to a client for Pine Works or I'm recruiting people into 86 00:04:02,701 --> 00:04:07,214 a Pine Works team to be I'm kind of like the the Nick Fury assembling Avengers 87 00:04:07,364 --> 00:04:09,885 on the Pine Works side. That's kind of and I and then I get out of the way. 88 00:04:09,885 --> 00:04:13,548 And then like I let the the really talented people take over and I go talk 89 00:04:13,548 --> 00:04:15,538 to other people. So yeah that that's 90 00:04:14,830 --> 00:04:15,830 Yeah. 91 00:04:15,638 --> 00:04:19,611 yeah that's my MO. And I I think the other thing that you've hit on that 92 00:04:19,611 --> 00:04:24,224 I think is a part of like why you and I are so connected is like you, 93 00:04:24,224 --> 00:04:27,446 I've always been very passionate about building community. 94 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:29,767 And kind of building relationships through community. 95 00:04:29,767 --> 00:04:31,808 So like way, way, way back in the day, 96 00:04:31,808 --> 00:04:34,550 back when I was a recruiter in like the early 2000s, 97 00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:38,062 I created PhilaMade, which was a Philadelphia-based creative community. 98 00:04:38,062 --> 00:04:40,223 the bureau kind of grew out of that. 99 00:04:40,223 --> 00:04:43,934 The and now I do my own events where I try to bring people together and kind 100 00:04:43,934 --> 00:04:45,385 of have like little, you know, 101 00:04:45,385 --> 00:04:51,018 two-day kind of unstructured, let's figure out what the world looks like events. 102 00:04:51,018 --> 00:04:54,390 and I like to support other people that are doing the same thing, 103 00:04:54,390 --> 00:04:55,390 whether that's 104 00:04:55,170 --> 00:04:57,221 Our buddy Ashley Budd, or it's Richard, 105 00:04:57,221 --> 00:04:59,923 or it's, you know, Revenue Captain Chris Free doing stuff. 106 00:04:59,923 --> 00:05:02,465 I love like Jen Derry's got a book signing. 107 00:05:02,465 --> 00:05:07,989 Like I love trying to put energy into people staying connected in real life 108 00:05:07,989 --> 00:05:11,290 and through real communities. And 'cause like amazing opportunities kind 109 00:05:11,290 --> 00:05:14,553 of spring out of that stuff if you if you do it right. 110 00:05:14,553 --> 00:05:16,054 So I've I've always that's 111 00:05:15,426 --> 00:05:16,426 Yeah. 112 00:05:16,054 --> 00:05:18,245 like my I guess my secret is, you know, 113 00:05:18,245 --> 00:05:22,647 Biz Dev as it as a function of like community has been kind of my my MO. 114 00:05:23,157 --> 00:05:28,880 full disclosure, you know, I worked with you when I 115 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,664 was really coming out of my period of non-compete. 116 00:05:33,664 --> 00:05:35,836 I'd kind of laid low, you know, 117 00:05:34,073 --> 00:05:36,022 Yeah. Yeah. 118 00:05:35,836 --> 00:05:36,836 licked 119 00:05:36,106 --> 00:05:39,279 my wounds, like explored other things. 120 00:05:38,467 --> 00:05:41,392 And you were like sharpening your knives and yeah. 121 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,882 yeah, sitting there and getting 122 00:05:41,392 --> 00:05:42,795 Yeah. 123 00:05:42,882 --> 00:05:46,695 antsy to to get back out there and what that would look like and how that would what 124 00:05:46,695 --> 00:05:48,927 that would look like with with adeo. 125 00:05:49,747 --> 00:05:51,048 what that would look like for me. 126 00:05:51,048 --> 00:05:56,938 And y you were so helpful in cueing that up and framing it 127 00:05:56,938 --> 00:06:01,160 and kind of kicking me a few times when I needed a a good kick to, 128 00:06:00,980 --> 00:06:06,854 Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Now once I realized that you were yeah, 129 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,953 you know? Yeah. Just you were like my my get back out there coach. 130 00:06:06,854 --> 00:06:11,347 you were actually string or bell from the wire and all of all 131 00:06:11,347 --> 00:06:13,859 of your content strategy should really be wee back up. 132 00:06:13,859 --> 00:06:18,301 Yeah, a hundred percent. So good. 133 00:06:14,676 --> 00:06:17,130 Yeah, yeah there it is. You sent me that. 134 00:06:17,130 --> 00:06:21,306 We back up. The little plaque yeah, 135 00:06:18,301 --> 00:06:22,184 Love it. But once once I once I figured out that 136 00:06:21,306 --> 00:06:22,528 sits on my sits on my desk. 137 00:06:22,678 --> 00:06:24,519 so good. Yeah, you're stringer bell. 138 00:06:24,519 --> 00:06:25,760 Once I figured out you stringer bell, 139 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,521 all the advice was easy at that point. 140 00:06:28,557 --> 00:06:30,918 Well, you are you are a great prophet, 141 00:06:30,918 --> 00:06:34,440 my man. Great seer. but no, I I think that was, 142 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,271 you know, we'd we'd been staying connected over the years, 143 00:06:37,271 --> 00:06:39,792 but that experience was really helpful. 144 00:06:39,792 --> 00:06:45,834 And and also just working with with you on on trying to leverage the what 145 00:06:45,834 --> 00:06:47,765 do you call it, like sort of your surface, 146 00:06:47,765 --> 00:06:51,926 like expanding your surface reach, 147 00:06:50,924 --> 00:06:53,887 Area for opportunity. That's that's my yeah. 148 00:06:51,926 --> 00:06:55,458 yeah, area for opportunity, right? 149 00:06:53,887 --> 00:06:55,580 Just just creating more 150 00:06:55,580 --> 00:06:58,343 surface area for opportunity. Just finding ways to, 151 00:06:58,343 --> 00:07:02,596 you know, catch more strays and and have more conversations and connect 152 00:07:02,566 --> 00:07:03,566 And that does 153 00:07:02,596 --> 00:07:03,596 to more things. 154 00:07:03,668 --> 00:07:04,668 Yeah. 155 00:07:04,047 --> 00:07:07,879 and I love that like for you that does not mean networking. 156 00:07:07,879 --> 00:07:10,970 You know, it's like we all I hate networking, 157 00:07:10,477 --> 00:07:11,891 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 158 00:07:10,970 --> 00:07:12,170 but I like expanding 159 00:07:12,170 --> 00:07:14,822 my surface area for opportunity. 160 00:07:14,273 --> 00:07:16,294 Yeah. yeah, yeah. No. 161 00:07:14,822 --> 00:07:16,442 That's a very different 162 00:07:16,442 --> 00:07:17,453 way of looking at it, you know? 163 00:07:17,603 --> 00:07:19,043 Yeah, you like a cocktail party, 164 00:07:19,043 --> 00:07:21,714 but you're not looking for a cocktail party where like someone's 165 00:07:21,714 --> 00:07:24,793 got business cards in their front pocket and they're desperate to hand them out. 166 00:07:24,793 --> 00:07:25,995 Like you like a cocktail party 167 00:07:25,526 --> 00:07:26,526 No. 168 00:07:26,235 --> 00:07:28,846 where we start to talk about weird stuff and you know, 169 00:07:28,846 --> 00:07:31,697 one person sitting on a table and everybody's having a good time. 170 00:07:31,697 --> 00:07:33,518 Like and I think that's a critical difference. 171 00:07:33,518 --> 00:07:36,658 I think there is like there's a way to do events that are more buttoned 172 00:07:36,658 --> 00:07:39,039 up than networking and yada yada yada. 173 00:07:39,039 --> 00:07:40,830 And there's a way to do events where it's like, 174 00:07:40,830 --> 00:07:41,920 you know, actually. 175 00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:45,304 If you do a smaller event and you're really choosy about who you invite 176 00:07:45,304 --> 00:07:47,367 to the event and then you whatever, 177 00:07:47,367 --> 00:07:50,091 sprinkle in a little whatever and let them do their thing, 178 00:07:50,091 --> 00:07:53,198 I think that there's it's a wholly different thing than than what 179 00:07:53,198 --> 00:07:54,370 you consider like networking. 180 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,972 It is. And I think, you know, I just had to realize about myself, 181 00:07:57,972 --> 00:07:59,873 which I've known for a long time, 182 00:07:59,873 --> 00:08:05,276 is that I I'm like allergic to sir to superficial conversation. 183 00:08:05,276 --> 00:08:07,454 It I can't I can't even do it. 184 00:08:07,454 --> 00:08:09,146 Like chit chat I 185 00:08:08,688 --> 00:08:09,688 Right. 186 00:08:09,215 --> 00:08:10,796 I mean I can I can do it a little bit, 187 00:08:10,796 --> 00:08:12,157 but I'm I'm 188 00:08:12,307 --> 00:08:17,561 I I'm plagued by this like urge to really dig in and 189 00:08:17,683 --> 00:08:18,683 Yeah. 190 00:08:18,084 --> 00:08:21,437 get into get into like go deep mode and you know, 191 00:08:21,258 --> 00:08:22,258 Yeah. 192 00:08:21,437 --> 00:08:22,437 that's 193 00:08:21,997 --> 00:08:23,478 that requires a certain platform. 194 00:08:23,478 --> 00:08:24,909 that's why I love this podcast, 195 00:08:24,909 --> 00:08:27,180 which you encouraged me to to start. 196 00:08:27,943 --> 00:08:28,943 It's the best. 197 00:08:28,421 --> 00:08:32,344 because I have I have long deep conversations with people and and then I, 198 00:08:32,344 --> 00:08:35,356 you know, it's really scratching my own itch there. 199 00:08:34,917 --> 00:08:38,258 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Legit. I totally get it. 200 00:08:35,356 --> 00:08:37,768 Yeah. 201 00:08:38,258 --> 00:08:39,520 It's yeah, it 202 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,172 nobody's got time for that. Nobody's got time. 203 00:08:41,172 --> 00:08:43,443 You're busy, you got a life, you got, 204 00:08:43,443 --> 00:08:46,044 you know, kids and this and that and whatever. 205 00:08:46,044 --> 00:08:48,255 Like I I don't have time to mess around. 206 00:08:48,255 --> 00:08:50,947 Like I I gotta I gotta find the right spots, 207 00:08:50,947 --> 00:08:53,338 plunge into them and you know, 208 00:08:53,338 --> 00:08:56,441 be myself real quick and then it's you know, 209 00:08:56,441 --> 00:08:58,521 'cause I got like I got two more things I gotta do after this. 210 00:08:58,521 --> 00:08:59,923 Like I gotta I gotta run around. 211 00:08:59,780 --> 00:09:00,780 Yeah. 212 00:08:59,923 --> 00:09:00,923 So yeah, 213 00:09:00,242 --> 00:09:01,242 I 214 00:09:00,502 --> 00:09:02,981 We're very we're wired very similarly in that kind of 215 00:09:02,981 --> 00:09:05,217 impatience about inauthenticity. 216 00:09:05,217 --> 00:09:06,530 Like I just don't have time for it. 217 00:09:05,608 --> 00:09:06,608 Yes. And I also think 218 00:09:06,539 --> 00:09:12,184 it it requires you to develop a skill for ruthless curation because you 219 00:09:12,184 --> 00:09:15,156 do have to prioritize, right? And you you can't do it all. 220 00:09:13,199 --> 00:09:14,801 I like that. I do like 221 00:09:15,156 --> 00:09:16,156 So you do have 222 00:09:16,147 --> 00:09:19,349 to be a ruthless curator. And and 223 00:09:18,358 --> 00:09:19,358 Yeah. Yeah. 224 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:24,153 that's something I've been realizing with all of this stuff going on with 225 00:09:24,153 --> 00:09:28,036 AI that I actually have to sharpen that skill again because AI can let 226 00:09:27,406 --> 00:09:30,452 Totally. Totally. 227 00:09:28,036 --> 00:09:30,298 you do so much at the same time. 228 00:09:30,602 --> 00:09:31,602 Totally. 229 00:09:31,219 --> 00:09:32,219 It's 230 00:09:31,732 --> 00:09:34,212 it's like, okay, well just 'cause I can does not mean I should, 231 00:09:34,212 --> 00:09:35,699 right? 232 00:09:35,146 --> 00:09:36,146 Right. I think 233 00:09:35,726 --> 00:09:37,227 I think you're I couldn't agree more. 234 00:09:37,227 --> 00:09:42,060 I feel like in the past eighteen months as AI has like rapidly scaled, 235 00:09:42,060 --> 00:09:45,982 and now there's this kind of scaling of inauthenticity that floods out of 236 00:09:46,132 --> 00:09:50,855 a lot of AI enablement. there is there is in parallel, 237 00:09:50,855 --> 00:09:56,618 there's an amazing amount of of value and perceived equity in in person experiences, 238 00:09:56,618 --> 00:09:57,979 real life connections. 239 00:09:58,129 --> 00:10:01,170 authentic conversations. Like I I don't know that they're like directly linked. 240 00:10:01,170 --> 00:10:03,151 It's it's too coincidental not to be, 241 00:10:03,151 --> 00:10:05,181 you know, related in some way though, 242 00:10:05,181 --> 00:10:10,524 where there is this perception of a lot of inauthenticity kind of dialing up. 243 00:10:10,524 --> 00:10:15,386 And in parallel, you know, people are dying to go to an event that Ashley's hosting. 244 00:10:15,386 --> 00:10:17,126 People are dying to go to a Richard event. 245 00:10:17,126 --> 00:10:20,638 People are dying, you know, like there's I have a lot more success having 246 00:10:20,638 --> 00:10:23,269 a coffee with somebody than I used to because I think there is like 247 00:10:24,169 --> 00:10:25,410 a a very parallel 248 00:10:25,940 --> 00:10:30,933 value in the IRL stuff while you perceive that there can be so much scaled 249 00:10:30,933 --> 00:10:32,344 and authentic stuff at the same time. 250 00:10:32,344 --> 00:10:33,344 And I think it's kind of a good thing. 251 00:10:33,344 --> 00:10:36,597 Like I think like this the AI enablement stuff's not going away. 252 00:10:36,597 --> 00:10:41,099 I'm glad that we're not retreating into our little turtle shells and hiding from, 253 00:10:41,099 --> 00:10:44,342 you know, the AI stuff and and hunkering down. 254 00:10:44,342 --> 00:10:48,594 Instead, people are kind of fighting back and they want to like spend time with real 255 00:10:48,594 --> 00:10:49,945 people that they know and trust. 256 00:10:49,945 --> 00:10:52,266 And and and trusting people means a lot more. 257 00:10:52,416 --> 00:10:54,196 than it meant three years ago. 258 00:10:54,196 --> 00:10:57,939 Like that and I th there's like a more equity in that now than there 259 00:10:57,939 --> 00:11:01,645 was before there was this specter of like did an email come from you or 260 00:11:01,645 --> 00:11:03,582 did an email come from like, you know, 261 00:11:03,582 --> 00:11:06,843 your little agentic buddy. Like what's going what's going on with this email? 262 00:11:06,843 --> 00:11:08,294 So, you know, I think it's like, 263 00:11:08,294 --> 00:11:10,074 you know, you and I text. Like that, 264 00:11:10,074 --> 00:11:13,986 like the fact that you and I text is a wholly different form factor 265 00:11:13,986 --> 00:11:16,247 of conversation than if I was sending you emails. 266 00:11:16,247 --> 00:11:17,247 Like 267 00:11:16,591 --> 00:11:17,591 I don't 268 00:11:16,831 --> 00:11:19,964 know, pretty pretty soon I think our agents will be able to text each other text. 269 00:11:18,935 --> 00:11:22,380 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's yeah, 270 00:11:19,964 --> 00:11:22,955 So yeah, don't don't hold on to that for too long. 271 00:11:22,380 --> 00:11:23,380 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 272 00:11:23,091 --> 00:11:24,493 Yeah. That's only right now, I guess, 273 00:11:24,493 --> 00:11:25,493 yeah. 274 00:11:24,843 --> 00:11:27,124 But yes, I mean I think for the last six years, 275 00:11:27,124 --> 00:11:29,696 I think COVID set us up to be like, 276 00:11:29,210 --> 00:11:32,433 Exactly. Yeah. That was the beginning. 277 00:11:29,696 --> 00:11:33,288 whoa, we're isolated, we're all communicating through screens. 278 00:11:32,433 --> 00:11:33,850 Yeah. 279 00:11:33,889 --> 00:11:37,640 And then we get through that, and then AI is here. 280 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:44,605 And the the timing is I think compounding the impact. 281 00:11:44,605 --> 00:11:50,848 And I I think it's pretty universal that I'm hearing from from people 282 00:11:50,848 --> 00:11:52,019 of many ages, like 283 00:11:52,169 --> 00:11:57,481 I need to be in real life with real humans and nature as much as I 284 00:11:55,113 --> 00:11:57,381 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 285 00:11:57,481 --> 00:12:01,783 need to be, you know, on these screens and in these in these tasks and 286 00:12:01,765 --> 00:12:02,784 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 287 00:12:02,904 --> 00:12:05,135 and having these relationships, 288 00:12:05,135 --> 00:12:10,756 you know, and these conversations around thinking with artificial intelligence is, 289 00:12:10,756 --> 00:12:13,387 you know, something we don't talk a lot about. 290 00:12:13,387 --> 00:12:18,069 But what is that doing to our own cognitive you know, 291 00:12:16,064 --> 00:12:18,353 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 292 00:12:18,569 --> 00:12:20,020 st anything? 293 00:12:20,170 --> 00:12:21,471 Yeah, no, I I I agree. I think that 294 00:12:20,576 --> 00:12:21,576 We talk yeah. 295 00:12:21,621 --> 00:12:24,613 yeah. I I I think that I'm a big believer that, 296 00:12:24,613 --> 00:12:28,335 you know, the journey is the thing usually and the outcome is kind 297 00:12:27,392 --> 00:12:29,651 Yeah. Yeah. 298 00:12:28,335 --> 00:12:29,736 of secondary and and 299 00:12:29,736 --> 00:12:33,758 we're at risk of like cutting the journey out of a lot of things and skipping 300 00:12:33,758 --> 00:12:34,949 to the end of the novel. You know, 301 00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:38,251 like what's the you know, I'm skipping the first seven chapters of this book. 302 00:12:38,251 --> 00:12:40,482 I want to get to the eighth chapter and just be done. 303 00:12:40,482 --> 00:12:42,544 Like there there's a risk of that for sure. 304 00:12:42,544 --> 00:12:45,516 I think that there the there it's it's like anything else. 305 00:12:45,516 --> 00:12:46,516 Like 306 00:12:46,196 --> 00:12:49,158 I think you have to have the right diet as it comes to this stuff and 307 00:12:49,158 --> 00:12:50,428 you have to figure out how to, 308 00:12:50,428 --> 00:12:55,180 you know, eat your vegetables and also still enjoy dessert and not just feast on, 309 00:12:55,180 --> 00:12:58,052 you know, Twinkies and ho ho's for the rest of your life. 310 00:12:58,052 --> 00:12:59,052 Like I 311 00:12:58,501 --> 00:12:59,501 Yes. 312 00:12:58,822 --> 00:13:00,944 think, you know, like AI could do a lot. 313 00:13:00,944 --> 00:13:04,075 Like like there's there's it's a slippery slope into how many different ways 314 00:13:04,075 --> 00:13:05,636 you can use tools and you can, 315 00:13:05,636 --> 00:13:08,919 you know, enable things. I think that there's I think the people that 316 00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:12,751 are that are better at it are actually pretty good at curating. 317 00:13:12,901 --> 00:13:16,124 Not to overuse the term, but they're curating like this tool for that, 318 00:13:16,124 --> 00:13:18,236 not for this, this tool in this way, 319 00:13:18,236 --> 00:13:21,459 not in that way. Scale that, but hold on to this. 320 00:13:21,459 --> 00:13:25,462 Like I need to like I was just who was I just talking to that was talking about? 321 00:13:25,612 --> 00:13:27,653 Somebody I was talking to was saying that like they had gotten into 322 00:13:27,653 --> 00:13:32,595 the habit of letting their ChatGPT buddy do a lot of email writing for them. 323 00:13:32,595 --> 00:13:36,786 And now they decided to go on like a a hiatus and write all their 324 00:13:36,786 --> 00:13:40,158 own emails again for the next couple of months because they were like getting 325 00:13:40,158 --> 00:13:43,548 out of the habit of like being able to write thoughtful emails and they needed 326 00:13:43,548 --> 00:13:47,539 to kind of like pace themselves and and you know go back to the gym and 327 00:13:47,539 --> 00:13:49,320 get in there and write emails again and 328 00:13:49,470 --> 00:13:51,032 you know, get develop that skill again. 329 00:13:51,032 --> 00:13:52,032 And then maybe they'll go back 330 00:13:51,491 --> 00:13:52,491 Yeah. 331 00:13:51,872 --> 00:13:53,224 to working with something again. 332 00:13:53,224 --> 00:13:56,877 Maybe they won't, but I think that's like there's like a mindfulness that 333 00:13:56,877 --> 00:14:02,162 I think is helpful to resist the slip slippery slope of this winding up 334 00:14:02,162 --> 00:14:05,966 in too many aspects of your work or too many aspects of your personality. 335 00:14:05,966 --> 00:14:10,340 Like this can really take over like whole parts of your identity if you 336 00:14:10,820 --> 00:14:12,742 are all gas and no brakes, you know? 337 00:14:12,892 --> 00:14:18,315 Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think we we're at a stage 338 00:14:18,315 --> 00:14:23,958 in our own professional development and life and wisdom and failures that we've 339 00:14:23,958 --> 00:14:27,909 experienced along the way to know when that's that that's a risk and to spot 340 00:14:27,909 --> 00:14:32,261 it when it starts to happen. But I do worry about people who don't know what what 341 00:14:32,261 --> 00:14:36,533 the alternative is. Like what is it to have a real voice in email? 342 00:14:36,533 --> 00:14:39,195 What what is it to write 343 00:14:39,345 --> 00:14:43,270 in a way that you know is your own your own voice if you're n if you're 344 00:14:40,527 --> 00:14:43,210 Yeah, that's a point. Yep. Yep. 345 00:14:43,270 --> 00:14:46,859 never developing that first. So all the people coming up now and 346 00:14:46,859 --> 00:14:48,717 coming through the schools and stuff, 347 00:14:48,717 --> 00:14:52,781 you know, I just hope that they learn to appreciate what that is so that they know 348 00:14:52,781 --> 00:14:53,943 what to compare it against. 349 00:14:54,093 --> 00:14:56,113 Tal and I think you're I think that that's really a great point. 350 00:14:56,113 --> 00:14:57,914 I think that, you know, you spent, 351 00:14:57,914 --> 00:15:02,415 you know, twenty years of your professional career figuring out what your voice 352 00:15:02,415 --> 00:15:06,736 was and how you sound and how you sound in an email and how you sound 353 00:15:06,736 --> 00:15:08,557 in person and and the just, you know, 354 00:15:08,557 --> 00:15:11,017 generally I developing your identity. 355 00:15:11,017 --> 00:15:12,017 You know, we all 356 00:15:11,521 --> 00:15:12,521 Yeah. 357 00:15:11,967 --> 00:15:15,958 like we all like sharpened our knives on Twitter where we had to have like 358 00:15:16,198 --> 00:15:19,198 an identity in so many few characters or less. 359 00:15:19,198 --> 00:15:22,029 And I think we kind of like hyper identified. 360 00:15:22,179 --> 00:15:26,032 in those days of social media and had to kind of like have a voice that stood 361 00:15:26,032 --> 00:15:28,242 out and and build an identity. 362 00:15:28,242 --> 00:15:29,383 And then now 363 00:15:28,809 --> 00:15:29,809 Yeah. 364 00:15:29,563 --> 00:15:32,755 like we're the I'm, you know, I'm the beneficiaries of I'm the beneficiary 365 00:15:32,755 --> 00:15:37,498 of having 30 years talking like the way I talk and honing that to an identity. 366 00:15:37,498 --> 00:15:41,070 You're right. There is like there's a risk if you don't if you're not forced 367 00:15:41,070 --> 00:15:42,671 to kind of go through that process, 368 00:15:42,671 --> 00:15:44,862 you can cheat code to an identity. 369 00:15:44,862 --> 00:15:49,104 but it's fascinating. Like I have so my kids are twenty one, 370 00:15:49,104 --> 00:15:50,335 eighteen, and fifteen. 371 00:15:50,485 --> 00:15:52,766 Yeah, talk about what's going on in their worlds. 372 00:15:50,968 --> 00:15:52,959 And yeah, yeah, 373 00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:56,009 yeah. I mean, it's so Nina, the youngest, 374 00:15:56,009 --> 00:16:02,061 she's very like AI averse. Like when it comes to AI and ads or AI, 375 00:16:02,061 --> 00:16:05,332 like she's like, she's constantly trying to spot it because it makes 376 00:16:05,332 --> 00:16:09,233 her cranky and she doesn't want it and she's very resistant to it. 377 00:16:09,233 --> 00:16:13,124 At the same time, she's also like there's something about that generation that 378 00:16:13,124 --> 00:16:16,965 is kind of refreshingly anti social media polish. 379 00:16:16,965 --> 00:16:18,346 Like they're like. 380 00:16:18,540 --> 00:16:22,382 The fact that I ever used an Instagram filter sends chills down her spine. 381 00:16:22,382 --> 00:16:25,544 Like that is the grossest thing ever imaginable. 382 00:16:24,303 --> 00:16:25,391 That's cringe, Joe. 383 00:16:25,544 --> 00:16:26,544 so cringe. 384 00:16:26,515 --> 00:16:30,087 And like cropping a photo and like all of that is so gross. 385 00:16:30,087 --> 00:16:34,880 you know, she got a digital camera for her birthday that takes crappy pictures 386 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,441 and she loves it. Like, ooh, it's a like Gwen's like trying 387 00:16:37,441 --> 00:16:39,452 to take homecoming pictures with this digital camera, 388 00:16:39,452 --> 00:16:40,530 and she's like, I can't. I was like, 389 00:16:40,530 --> 00:16:41,644 that's why we stopped making them. 390 00:16:41,644 --> 00:16:44,935 But anyway, so there is like this inherent like 391 00:16:45,085 --> 00:16:49,327 anti-inauthenticity instinct that I see in her, 392 00:16:49,327 --> 00:16:53,329 more mostly her. Nina's the most like creative and artistic of 393 00:16:53,329 --> 00:16:55,620 the three Ronaldi kids. I think the boys would agree with that. 394 00:16:55,620 --> 00:16:59,883 so I think she really is trying to develop her identity and she's really trying 395 00:16:59,728 --> 00:17:00,728 Yeah. 396 00:16:59,883 --> 00:17:00,883 to develop 397 00:17:00,213 --> 00:17:02,885 her voice and she feels strongly about that. 398 00:17:02,885 --> 00:17:04,615 And then on the other end of the spectrum, 399 00:17:04,615 --> 00:17:07,637 Jack is about to graduate from Northeastern and 400 00:17:07,070 --> 00:17:08,070 Yeah. 401 00:17:08,157 --> 00:17:09,478 you know he's like they 402 00:17:09,722 --> 00:17:11,413 gave all of them free Claude accounts. 403 00:17:11,413 --> 00:17:15,437 Like he's got a free Claude account that the school pays for that's that they're 404 00:17:15,437 --> 00:17:18,519 expected to use in certain areas. 405 00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:22,262 He has a he has one class that is his least favorite class that he's 406 00:17:22,262 --> 00:17:24,484 not allowed to bring even a laptop into. 407 00:17:24,484 --> 00:17:27,776 Like you take notes. Like you're the the the professor 408 00:17:27,078 --> 00:17:28,078 Old school. 409 00:17:27,776 --> 00:17:31,670 is very rigid about this. And in ja and it's like the most it's already 410 00:17:31,670 --> 00:17:35,383 the most boring class he has. And now he's like fighting to pay attention, 411 00:17:35,383 --> 00:17:37,104 to struggle to pay attention to this guy. 412 00:17:37,575 --> 00:17:41,615 But he's also, you know, on the precipice of graduating and job hunting. 413 00:17:41,615 --> 00:17:47,519 And, you know, he's he's recognized that being good at using these tools is 414 00:17:47,519 --> 00:17:50,000 a way to stand out in the job market. 415 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:51,562 It's what employers 416 00:17:50,662 --> 00:17:51,662 Yes. 417 00:17:51,562 --> 00:17:53,583 are employers are looking for fluency, 418 00:17:53,583 --> 00:17:55,313 you know, working with this stuff. 419 00:17:55,313 --> 00:17:58,235 And they're looking for that kind of acumen walking in the door. 420 00:17:58,235 --> 00:17:59,935 And, you know, he's an animal. 421 00:17:59,935 --> 00:18:02,537 He is like so, so driven. 422 00:18:02,687 --> 00:18:06,029 You know, he's teaching himself and forcing himself to be good at these things 423 00:18:06,029 --> 00:18:08,361 so that it can, you know, augment what he's doing. 424 00:18:08,361 --> 00:18:10,002 And, you know, he wants to whatever, 425 00:18:10,002 --> 00:18:13,235 go get a job at Accenture or McKinsey or something and what you know, 426 00:18:13,235 --> 00:18:17,437 use these tools. It that that's like figuring out how to do that 427 00:18:18,758 --> 00:18:22,310 in entry level jobs is you know, 428 00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:24,072 preoccupying everything about this kid. 429 00:18:24,072 --> 00:18:26,743 When he's not when he's not EDM DJing, 430 00:18:26,743 --> 00:18:28,705 which is the other thing this maniac does, 431 00:18:28,705 --> 00:18:30,516 he's busy. 432 00:18:30,736 --> 00:18:32,778 Like trying to figure out how to, 433 00:18:32,778 --> 00:18:35,400 you know, use all these tools and and and get a new job. 434 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,381 So yeah, it it's it's it's it it's I wonder a lot, 435 00:18:38,381 --> 00:18:39,812 worry a lot. Like I think that we, 436 00:18:39,812 --> 00:18:46,477 you and I are of an age where all the AI stuff I were I'll speak for myself, 437 00:18:46,477 --> 00:18:51,942 all the AI stuff I work with makes me feel like I have such mastery over 438 00:18:52,092 --> 00:18:57,827 so many pedantic things. Like I I feel so quantum in my capability because I have 439 00:18:57,977 --> 00:19:00,189 30 years of like work experience, 440 00:19:00,189 --> 00:19:02,441 and then these tools all arrive at this moment. 441 00:19:02,441 --> 00:19:06,083 I'm like, holy crap, like I can take like 30 years of stuff I know and I 442 00:19:06,083 --> 00:19:09,386 can push it through ChatGPT and I can do this and I can do that and I 443 00:19:09,386 --> 00:19:10,697 can do all these amazing things. 444 00:19:10,697 --> 00:19:14,110 But it's like arriving at this moment where I have 30 years of experience 445 00:19:14,330 --> 00:19:15,731 and now I have all these tools. 446 00:19:15,731 --> 00:19:18,182 To your point about like the journey and all that, 447 00:19:18,182 --> 00:19:21,765 like if if you have one year of experience and you have all these tools, 448 00:19:21,765 --> 00:19:23,216 you know, does it give you beer muscles? 449 00:19:23,216 --> 00:19:24,216 Does it give you like 450 00:19:24,267 --> 00:19:26,419 you know, empty calories? Like what is it it does? 451 00:19:26,419 --> 00:19:30,854 Do you have to figure out a way to like how how do you go from zero 452 00:19:30,854 --> 00:19:34,467 to mastery and then use your mastery with these tools to 453 00:19:34,467 --> 00:19:36,419 get really masterful results out of it? 454 00:19:36,419 --> 00:19:39,582 Like that's the part that is being figured out the hard way right now, 455 00:19:39,582 --> 00:19:40,582 I feel like. 456 00:19:40,213 --> 00:19:41,894 Yeah, I mean I I think, you know, 457 00:19:41,894 --> 00:19:44,275 AI's like it's like, you know, 458 00:19:44,275 --> 00:19:49,148 picture those Swiss Army knives that have every different kind of attachment, 459 00:19:49,148 --> 00:19:51,219 the really big ones. Like I always 460 00:19:49,728 --> 00:19:51,005 Yeah. Yeah. 461 00:19:51,219 --> 00:19:53,090 wanted one of those when I was a little kid and 462 00:19:53,066 --> 00:19:54,066 Yeah yeah yeah yeah. 463 00:19:53,883 --> 00:19:57,753 I I'm sure I I never got one because they were too expensive, 464 00:19:57,753 --> 00:20:00,734 but they were also probably weighed like twenty pounds and you're like carting 465 00:20:00,734 --> 00:20:04,236 it around. Yeah. 466 00:20:00,916 --> 00:20:03,425 I have one and it weighs it weighs a ton. 467 00:20:03,425 --> 00:20:04,701 Yeah. Yeah. 468 00:20:04,236 --> 00:20:05,236 So but 469 00:20:04,786 --> 00:20:07,437 that's that's kind of how I look at AI. 470 00:20:07,437 --> 00:20:08,528 it's 471 00:20:08,678 --> 00:20:12,700 It's a ton of tools to solve solve problems, 472 00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:17,052 right? The problems are not it's not solving the the actual problem 473 00:20:17,052 --> 00:20:18,383 to the point where the problem goes away. 474 00:20:18,383 --> 00:20:22,475 It's giving us tools to address problems and challenges and things. 475 00:20:22,475 --> 00:20:23,856 Different kind in different ways, 476 00:20:23,856 --> 00:20:25,337 right? Efficiencies or 477 00:20:25,487 --> 00:20:30,330 exposure or strategic thinking or tactics or whatever it might be. 478 00:20:30,330 --> 00:20:33,121 You know, you're building software to solve problems instead of trying 479 00:20:33,121 --> 00:20:36,283 to find a piece of software that will solve your problem amongst 480 00:20:35,922 --> 00:20:36,922 Yeah, yeah. 481 00:20:36,283 --> 00:20:37,974 many others that you don't need solved. 482 00:20:37,974 --> 00:20:39,234 So 483 00:20:38,621 --> 00:20:39,621 Mm-hmm. 484 00:20:39,234 --> 00:20:44,137 a lot is getting inversed, but I think you still have to know which tool 485 00:20:44,137 --> 00:20:47,899 to to pull out of the Swiss Army knife and how to apply it. 486 00:20:47,899 --> 00:20:51,891 And that's where the the skills of learning 487 00:20:52,041 --> 00:20:55,025 how to use these tools, that's where this the you know, 488 00:20:55,025 --> 00:20:56,736 the human still has to kind of put in the reps. 489 00:20:56,736 --> 00:21:01,772 because there are a lot of pointless ways to use these tools where nothing 490 00:21:01,772 --> 00:21:03,273 is really accomplished, you know. 491 00:21:01,793 --> 00:21:05,114 yeah. A hundred percent. I agree entirely. 492 00:21:03,273 --> 00:21:07,987 Although it can give it can give the appearance it can give the appearance 493 00:21:05,114 --> 00:21:08,606 There's a there's a hundred per also true. 494 00:21:07,987 --> 00:21:09,619 of good things happening. 495 00:21:08,606 --> 00:21:09,606 Yep. 496 00:21:09,769 --> 00:21:14,602 Yep. You can you can have a lot of wasted empty calorie progress that once 497 00:21:14,086 --> 00:21:15,086 Yes. 498 00:21:14,602 --> 00:21:17,243 the dust settles, like there's actually not a lot of there there. 499 00:21:17,243 --> 00:21:20,434 Like it looks like there's a lot there and you've done a lot, 500 00:21:20,434 --> 00:21:22,725 but then really when you audit what you did, 501 00:21:22,725 --> 00:21:24,840 it's like this is this really didn't, 502 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,222 you know, whatever. There, there's just mileage varies based on how you're using it. 503 00:21:29,372 --> 00:21:34,046 And I think part of it is developing the skill set to know when to use it, 504 00:21:34,046 --> 00:21:35,708 how to use it, how much to use, 505 00:21:35,708 --> 00:21:40,323 you know, when not to use it, how to basically like making it a a tool 506 00:21:40,383 --> 00:21:44,507 in your toolkit, not just some kind of like red button you smash every once 507 00:21:44,507 --> 00:21:48,040 in a while. Like AI that like there needs to be a little bit more 508 00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:48,180 Yeah, and I 509 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,040 dexterity. 510 00:21:48,831 --> 00:21:54,995 I think part of the other problem with AI is that its speed its speed 511 00:21:54,995 --> 00:21:57,266 and its power combined, right, 512 00:21:57,266 --> 00:21:59,699 is a is something we've never experienced before. 513 00:21:59,699 --> 00:22:04,772 So normally you know, big things would happen because maybe software would come 514 00:22:04,772 --> 00:22:07,024 around. I'm thinking about Photoshop and all of a sudden 515 00:22:07,054 --> 00:22:08,054 Mm. 516 00:22:07,445 --> 00:22:08,796 it's easy it's easier to work 517 00:22:08,946 --> 00:22:12,649 on editing your photos on in software than in the dark room. 518 00:22:12,649 --> 00:22:18,203 that's because the tool was able to solve the problem faster 519 00:22:18,353 --> 00:22:21,816 and more powerfully than the ways of doing it prior. 520 00:22:20,211 --> 00:22:22,496 Yeah. Yes. 521 00:22:23,437 --> 00:22:29,281 Now we've got tools that can understand and solve the problems incredibly fast 522 00:22:29,431 --> 00:22:33,643 at wherever we point them, which which doesn't really give us enough time 523 00:22:33,643 --> 00:22:34,784 to absorb what's happening. 524 00:22:34,934 --> 00:22:37,876 If we if we try to kind of keep up with the pace, 525 00:22:37,511 --> 00:22:38,511 Mm-hmm. 526 00:22:38,597 --> 00:22:45,063 I think what I'm finding is it's too tempting for people to skim over like 527 00:22:45,263 --> 00:22:46,764 the work that's getting done. 528 00:22:47,122 --> 00:22:48,122 Yeah. 529 00:22:47,853 --> 00:22:52,619 And like you said earlier, like focus on the end result without digesting 530 00:22:52,059 --> 00:22:55,565 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 531 00:22:52,619 --> 00:22:55,532 any of the nutrition of the yeah, 532 00:22:55,532 --> 00:22:56,532 the 533 00:22:55,732 --> 00:22:58,935 junk food is is a good one, 534 00:22:58,935 --> 00:22:59,935 a good comparison. 535 00:22:59,357 --> 00:23:00,357 Yeah, I'm I'm 536 00:23:00,238 --> 00:23:02,287 I'm thinking about, I think that makes a ton of sense. 537 00:23:02,287 --> 00:23:06,621 And I'm thinking about the the examples of ways I use these tools. 538 00:23:06,621 --> 00:23:11,094 What it tends to do is make me better at things I'm already really good at. 539 00:23:11,094 --> 00:23:15,407 I think the I think the the there's another way to use it where it falsely makes 540 00:23:15,407 --> 00:23:17,409 you appear better than you are at a thing. 541 00:23:17,409 --> 00:23:21,121 And that gets sniffed out pretty quickly, 542 00:23:21,121 --> 00:23:22,702 and you're basically just like. 543 00:23:22,852 --> 00:23:25,873 taking a knife to a gunfight without realizing it because you've used 544 00:23:25,873 --> 00:23:32,506 AI to like prop you up into a space or a conversation or or some outcome that 545 00:23:32,506 --> 00:23:34,807 you really don't know enough about and you're unprepared for. 546 00:23:34,471 --> 00:23:35,608 Yeah. Yeah. 547 00:23:34,807 --> 00:23:35,807 Like I I don't tend 548 00:23:35,727 --> 00:23:39,469 to use it for that. I don't tend to have it like to stand on AI's shoulders 549 00:23:39,569 --> 00:23:43,331 and have it take me to places I haven't earned to be. 550 00:23:43,331 --> 00:23:46,562 What I do use it for is like, I'm really good at doing this already. 551 00:23:46,562 --> 00:23:50,353 Can you make this faster and do it the way I like to do it. 552 00:23:50,557 --> 00:23:53,988 And then help me get more work done the way I like to get work done 553 00:23:53,988 --> 00:23:56,309 to the standards I know are important. 554 00:23:56,309 --> 00:23:59,627 Because I I think that the this is something that Anthony Calangelo, 555 00:23:59,627 --> 00:24:01,571 who I work with, says a lot, and I agree with this a ton. 556 00:24:01,571 --> 00:24:04,161 and I think it's it's kind of what you're saying. 557 00:24:04,161 --> 00:24:07,413 In a way, like, taste becomes your superpower. 558 00:24:07,413 --> 00:24:12,226 Like, taste and standards and point of view and all that really becomes kind 559 00:24:12,226 --> 00:24:14,687 of your perfect superpower and 560 00:24:14,837 --> 00:24:16,778 That's how you're able to determine, 561 00:24:16,778 --> 00:24:18,750 like, this thing that AI made is crap. 562 00:24:18,750 --> 00:24:20,392 This thing that AI made is good. 563 00:24:20,392 --> 00:24:21,863 This thing that AI made is okay, 564 00:24:21,863 --> 00:24:23,294 but I need to add something to it, 565 00:24:23,294 --> 00:24:25,496 like it's not good enough, or it's just slightly 566 00:24:24,268 --> 00:24:25,309 Yeah. Yeah. 567 00:24:25,496 --> 00:24:29,968 off target. Like you have to have taste and experience and all these things 568 00:24:29,968 --> 00:24:33,342 to be able to direct this stuff effectively. 569 00:24:33,342 --> 00:24:37,695 Otherwise, you become kind of in the backseat and something without taste 570 00:24:37,695 --> 00:24:39,266 is driving you forward. You know, 571 00:24:39,266 --> 00:24:41,178 something without a point of view is driving you forward. 572 00:24:41,328 --> 00:24:42,750 Right, but let me ask you this. 573 00:24:42,750 --> 00:24:47,022 Do you think that's gonna be the case for the next like for do you think 574 00:24:47,022 --> 00:24:48,429 AI will eventually 575 00:24:48,579 --> 00:24:52,036 be able to develop something that rivals that. 576 00:24:52,186 --> 00:24:54,247 I I think it's possible, for sure. 577 00:24:54,247 --> 00:24:56,187 I think that there is a there the you know, 578 00:24:56,187 --> 00:24:59,098 the the tools haven't gotten dumber in the last 18 months. 579 00:24:59,098 --> 00:25:02,578 Like they're they're getting better at a variety of things. 580 00:25:02,578 --> 00:25:05,830 I do think that there's something to be said for, 581 00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:10,821 you know, there is like an imperfectness to taste that I think these tools struggle 582 00:25:10,821 --> 00:25:13,531 to identify or struggle to reproduce. 583 00:25:13,531 --> 00:25:15,572 I think it's our imperfection in some ways. 584 00:25:15,722 --> 00:25:18,403 And the rough edges and the shaggy parts that, 585 00:25:18,403 --> 00:25:22,055 you know identify to somebody that this person has a point of view 586 00:25:22,055 --> 00:25:25,366 and they have their own kind of taste and I think there's a vibe, 587 00:25:25,366 --> 00:25:27,147 you know, that I can perceive with this. 588 00:25:27,147 --> 00:25:30,958 I think I Yeah. 589 00:25:27,708 --> 00:25:30,359 Yeah, yeah. I I totally I agree. 590 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:31,359 And yet 591 00:25:31,230 --> 00:25:35,293 I just wonder if the AI is gonna get good enough to to 592 00:25:33,629 --> 00:25:34,990 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 593 00:25:35,434 --> 00:25:39,127 be able to simulate that and s simulate that in some sort of way where 594 00:25:39,127 --> 00:25:42,218 it becomes indistinguishable, which would be t that'll be scary, 595 00:25:42,218 --> 00:25:44,209 right? I mean, that would be a scary moment. 596 00:25:42,824 --> 00:25:44,325 I think I think you're absolutely right. 597 00:25:44,475 --> 00:25:47,236 I think like in that world, let's let's let's play that game. 598 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:48,407 Let's in that world where 599 00:25:47,762 --> 00:25:48,762 Okay. 600 00:25:48,557 --> 00:25:53,839 there is a decreased ability for AI outputs to feel like idiosyncratic 601 00:25:53,959 --> 00:25:56,200 and having a sense of taste and all those things. 602 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,942 I think again it comes back to like that increases the value of there being 603 00:26:02,123 --> 00:26:06,044 IRL equity baked into certain things so that like 604 00:26:06,194 --> 00:26:09,275 Okay, this AI is making things that feel like they have a point of view 605 00:26:09,275 --> 00:26:11,575 and they feel like they have taste and all of that. 606 00:26:11,575 --> 00:26:13,176 Like, how does that compete with Tracey, 607 00:26:13,176 --> 00:26:15,536 who I know personally? Like part of the is gonna be, 608 00:26:15,536 --> 00:26:19,137 you know, getting to know people personally and valuing people individually. 609 00:26:19,137 --> 00:26:23,448 And, you know, maybe there's more people going to Broadway shows than to the movies, 610 00:26:23,448 --> 00:26:27,129 you know, like maybe there's more live performance than there is recorded. 611 00:26:27,129 --> 00:26:28,129 Maybe there is I I think 612 00:26:27,635 --> 00:26:28,635 Yeah. 613 00:26:28,089 --> 00:26:30,910 that that stuff kind of is along that trend line, 614 00:26:30,910 --> 00:26:33,361 you know? So this AI has like 615 00:26:32,372 --> 00:26:33,372 So along that 616 00:26:33,361 --> 00:26:34,361 a yeah. 617 00:26:34,181 --> 00:26:35,642 but along that trend line then, 618 00:26:35,642 --> 00:26:40,456 let let's just jump right to the the why is everyone freaking out about jobs, 619 00:26:40,456 --> 00:26:44,019 including the people that are inside these AI organizations who 620 00:26:44,019 --> 00:26:47,772 are also freaking out about just how good they're get how powerful these things 621 00:26:47,772 --> 00:26:49,554 are getting. Like what what's your take on that? 622 00:26:49,704 --> 00:26:52,166 I so I heard I wish I could like really, 623 00:26:52,166 --> 00:26:53,516 really properly attribute this. 624 00:26:53,516 --> 00:26:55,448 If I can find the speaker's name. 625 00:26:55,448 --> 00:26:58,780 Shoot, I just traded an email with I'm gonna drop a name. 626 00:26:58,780 --> 00:27:01,091 I was just trading an email with Josh Clark about this. 627 00:27:01,091 --> 00:27:03,107 He's such a big shot. all right, 628 00:27:03,107 --> 00:27:04,954 there's a speaker named Michael Reynolds, 629 00:27:04,954 --> 00:27:07,486 and he recently spoke, and I wasn't even there, 630 00:27:07,486 --> 00:27:09,837 this was all relayed to me, but he's an economist, 631 00:27:09,837 --> 00:27:12,092 and he was talking about how. 632 00:27:12,498 --> 00:27:16,992 He doesn't feel he doesn't have any fear that AI is gonna dramatically impact 633 00:27:16,992 --> 00:27:22,456 the job market 20, 30 years into the future because COVID 634 00:27:23,297 --> 00:27:28,350 and the United States' obnoxious immigration policies and a variety 635 00:27:28,350 --> 00:27:32,785 of things are reducing the size of the workforce so dramatically that there could 636 00:27:32,785 --> 00:27:36,077 be fewer people looking for jobs in 10 and 20, 637 00:27:36,077 --> 00:27:38,738 30 years than there were 10 and 20 years ago. 638 00:27:38,918 --> 00:27:43,281 Like the the amount of like employable people is just gonna s shrink 639 00:27:43,301 --> 00:27:46,113 as a pool because of more people not having kids. 640 00:27:46,113 --> 00:27:50,056 Again, this, you know, we're not we have we have a horrible immigration policy, 641 00:27:50,056 --> 00:27:51,377 doesn't let people into the country. 642 00:27:52,013 --> 00:27:53,013 Yeah. 643 00:27:52,425 --> 00:27:56,038 COVID had this kind of disruptive effect on the economy and the 644 00:27:56,038 --> 00:27:58,580 way that people handle work and think about work. 645 00:27:58,580 --> 00:28:03,114 And there may be kind of like a weirdly balancing thing that happens that. 646 00:28:03,264 --> 00:28:06,376 AI allows people to scale what they're able to do in jobs, 647 00:28:06,376 --> 00:28:11,459 but there are fewer people to be kind of the the the the liver puller kind 648 00:28:11,459 --> 00:28:12,950 of person that's using AI tools. 649 00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:15,972 So could those things help balance each other out a little bit? 650 00:28:15,972 --> 00:28:19,273 Like I take a little solace from that that just there's like a there's like 651 00:28:19,273 --> 00:28:23,535 an actuarial table that says if the number of employable people goes down, 652 00:28:23,535 --> 00:28:25,886 you're gonna need AI tools 653 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:25,827 Yeah. That's interesting. 654 00:28:25,886 --> 00:28:28,807 to to let fewer people do the work that needs to get done. 655 00:28:29,175 --> 00:28:30,175 I like 656 00:28:29,547 --> 00:28:31,256 that. I mean I I also just think 657 00:28:30,473 --> 00:28:31,473 It feels a little 658 00:28:31,406 --> 00:28:34,739 too coincidental and a little too like isn't that convenient at in some way, 659 00:28:34,739 --> 00:28:35,739 but I think there's something there. 660 00:28:35,823 --> 00:28:37,964 Because I think people like to have something to do. 661 00:28:37,964 --> 00:28:42,437 even if, you know, like we we need stuff to 662 00:28:39,605 --> 00:28:42,346 sure. Yeah. 663 00:28:42,437 --> 00:28:47,039 do. I do not look forward to a to a civilization where everyone is just 664 00:28:47,189 --> 00:28:51,851 has idle time, right? Like I think have having a sense of purpose I 665 00:28:47,546 --> 00:28:52,356 Yeah. Yeah. I think yes. Yeah. 666 00:28:51,851 --> 00:28:52,851 do think is something 667 00:28:52,622 --> 00:28:56,593 we are gonna continue to need as a as a species. 668 00:28:55,578 --> 00:28:57,806 Yeah. No. 669 00:28:56,593 --> 00:28:57,924 But so 670 00:28:57,924 --> 00:29:02,076 that's good to know that there will be plenty of jobs because there aren't enough 671 00:29:02,076 --> 00:29:03,076 people. 672 00:29:02,626 --> 00:29:04,749 But but I also think that you know, 673 00:29:04,749 --> 00:29:06,732 when people raise this alarm, I'm like, 674 00:29:06,732 --> 00:29:08,960 Yeah, but w who really is gonna I mean, 675 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,162 we'll find stuff to do. Like we if even if the jobs that we know today go away, 676 00:29:13,162 --> 00:29:14,294 we'll we'll do other find 677 00:29:13,979 --> 00:29:14,979 Yeah. 678 00:29:14,294 --> 00:29:15,294 other things to do. 679 00:29:15,059 --> 00:29:18,589 I mean, you have a job today that didn't exist when you were an undergrad. 680 00:29:18,739 --> 00:29:19,739 Yeah. 681 00:29:19,165 --> 00:29:22,866 Like this whole industry of the internet didn't exist when you were in high school. 682 00:29:22,866 --> 00:29:27,256 And you're you're living in a future that 17 year old Tracey could have never 683 00:29:27,256 --> 00:29:29,607 imagined. Like that that nothing like that doesn't change. 684 00:29:28,236 --> 00:29:29,687 Yeah, no totally. 685 00:29:29,607 --> 00:29:30,607 Like 686 00:29:29,787 --> 00:29:31,527 that's that's the world we're gonna live in. 687 00:29:31,527 --> 00:29:34,477 I think that shoot, you said something that made me think of some 688 00:29:34,627 --> 00:29:38,230 the other thing is this. I think that you and I are 689 00:29:38,668 --> 00:29:42,710 Of an industry that is a little bit more AI-pilled because of 690 00:29:43,071 --> 00:29:45,622 our proximity to technology. You know, 691 00:29:45,622 --> 00:29:49,085 like you work in technology, 692 00:29:49,085 --> 00:29:53,017 I work in technology. When you turn around and look at like the 693 00:29:53,167 --> 00:29:56,810 19 normy people behind you that don't work in technology, 694 00:29:56,810 --> 00:29:58,911 like they're not in love with this stuff. 695 00:29:58,911 --> 00:30:00,492 Like they're not, they're not trying, 696 00:30:00,492 --> 00:30:02,363 they're not trying to use AI. Like, 697 00:30:02,363 --> 00:30:04,775 like it's it's kind of shocking when you get out of like 698 00:30:04,925 --> 00:30:07,677 We in our little industry bubble and we talk to each other 699 00:30:07,677 --> 00:30:10,651 and this person's experimenting with that and this person's playing around with this 700 00:30:10,651 --> 00:30:12,092 and we're all kind of like, you know, 701 00:30:12,092 --> 00:30:15,255 makers or or curious or whatever and doing things. 702 00:30:15,255 --> 00:30:19,408 And then, you know, you turn around and you look at the fifteen people behind you, 703 00:30:19,408 --> 00:30:22,250 you know, some of them are using it who are not in the technology role, 704 00:30:22,250 --> 00:30:25,803 but there's a an amazing amount of people that have like zero interest in this. 705 00:30:25,803 --> 00:30:28,506 Like it it's like, you know, are w is there still gonna be, 706 00:30:28,506 --> 00:30:30,781 you know, is there still gonna be 707 00:30:30,931 --> 00:30:34,564 a software development industry if like anybody can make software whenever they 708 00:30:34,564 --> 00:30:36,504 want. I'm like, people don't want to do that. 709 00:30:36,504 --> 00:30:38,194 Like you assume that people want to do that. 710 00:30:38,194 --> 00:30:41,357 Like you want to do that because you're a technologist and you're 711 00:30:41,357 --> 00:30:42,738 a software designer or whatever. 712 00:30:42,738 --> 00:30:45,240 Like you wanna do that, but most people aren't you. 713 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,031 Most people don't want to like, 714 00:30:47,031 --> 00:30:50,893 ooh, I can make my own bespoke running app on my phone now. 715 00:30:50,893 --> 00:30:51,893 And like, nope. 716 00:30:50,978 --> 00:30:51,978 Right. I mean 717 00:30:51,699 --> 00:30:53,740 we could we could all bake our own bread, 718 00:30:53,740 --> 00:30:57,633 but most of us buy it. Right? Yeah. 719 00:30:54,784 --> 00:30:57,055 Exactly. That's a that's a much more succinct way to say that. 720 00:30:57,055 --> 00:30:58,726 That's very good. Exactly right. 721 00:30:57,633 --> 00:31:00,706 And yeah. 722 00:30:58,726 --> 00:31:00,707 Exactly right. So yeah, I think that that's 723 00:31:00,857 --> 00:31:03,914 yeah, I think we have a s in the industry and we're the ones talking about 724 00:31:03,914 --> 00:31:05,205 it all the time and we're the ones, 725 00:31:05,205 --> 00:31:06,536 you know, working with it a lot. 726 00:31:06,536 --> 00:31:11,549 I think we have a skewed perspective on like how this actually sits with Gen Pop. 727 00:31:10,101 --> 00:31:12,571 Totally. Totally. 728 00:31:11,549 --> 00:31:12,549 And 729 00:31:12,721 --> 00:31:14,262 yeah. And I I'd like and you know, 730 00:31:14,262 --> 00:31:16,143 and like I I made this joke to you before. 731 00:31:16,143 --> 00:31:18,444 Like I am I'm not a trained designer. 732 00:31:18,444 --> 00:31:20,495 I went to SCAD, but that was for illustration. 733 00:31:20,495 --> 00:31:21,686 Like I'm not like a web designer. 734 00:31:21,836 --> 00:31:24,958 and I'm not a developer, like I'm not like a technologist. 735 00:31:24,958 --> 00:31:29,772 I am I am like a bro. I am that's why I've always been good at bizdev. 736 00:31:29,772 --> 00:31:33,795 Like I'm the person who can translate between the agency I work for 737 00:31:33,945 --> 00:31:37,087 and the normal people that want to engage the agency. 738 00:31:35,556 --> 00:31:36,742 Normi normally speak. 739 00:31:37,087 --> 00:31:38,087 Yeah, 740 00:31:37,308 --> 00:31:38,529 the normies. Like, you know, excuse me, 741 00:31:38,529 --> 00:31:40,210 stewardess, I speak normie. Like, 742 00:31:40,210 --> 00:31:44,473 like, like, yeah, that that's always been my my translator role. 743 00:31:44,473 --> 00:31:47,406 and so, like, you know, but but as a normie, 744 00:31:47,406 --> 00:31:49,908 I'm still I I'm more in that like. 745 00:31:50,058 --> 00:31:53,381 excited about using the tools and and experimenting with ways to do it, 746 00:31:53,381 --> 00:31:57,234 but only because I think I spent so much time in the crucible of our industry 747 00:31:57,384 --> 00:32:00,146 and I see how easy it is to make things now. 748 00:32:00,146 --> 00:32:06,191 Like I I'm I'm making things when 10 years ago I couldn't make a damn thing. 749 00:32:06,191 --> 00:32:08,012 You know, five years ago I couldn't make anything. 750 00:32:08,012 --> 00:32:12,265 But now I, you know, I have enough reps where I know how things could get made 751 00:32:12,265 --> 00:32:13,486 and I know what needs to be made. 752 00:32:13,486 --> 00:32:17,559 And now the tools I'm using are the bridge between me having an idea 753 00:32:17,709 --> 00:32:19,680 And this thing executing and shipping, 754 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,179 which is amazing. Like I've really I've been I 755 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,120 It yeah. 756 00:32:23,342 --> 00:32:27,884 I've been on like the eighteen month high of using these different tools 757 00:32:27,884 --> 00:32:31,274 in different ways and and really like and enjoying the hell out of it. 758 00:32:31,274 --> 00:32:32,545 Like, you know, staying 759 00:32:32,115 --> 00:32:33,115 Same. 760 00:32:32,545 --> 00:32:33,996 up late 'cause I'm working on something. 761 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:36,397 Or, you know, I'm not paying attention to this movie because I have 762 00:32:36,397 --> 00:32:38,568 my laptop cracked open and I'm just having fun, 763 00:32:38,568 --> 00:32:40,319 you know, farting around with something. 764 00:32:40,319 --> 00:32:42,760 Or, you know, I did this on a Saturday morning. 765 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:43,760 Like I think 766 00:32:43,368 --> 00:32:44,939 There those are good s those are good symptoms. 767 00:32:44,939 --> 00:32:47,721 Like when you're like so excited about working on something that you're kind 768 00:32:47,721 --> 00:32:50,172 of like, you know, doing it in your free time, 769 00:32:50,172 --> 00:32:52,052 I think that's that means it's fun. 770 00:32:52,052 --> 00:32:54,824 So yeah, that that's that's where I've been for the past like year and 771 00:32:54,824 --> 00:32:55,925 a half in that kind of zone. 772 00:32:56,075 --> 00:32:57,846 Yeah, fun is definitely a big part of it. 773 00:32:57,846 --> 00:33:01,767 if you start to feel like your brain is gonna melt out your ears, 774 00:33:01,767 --> 00:33:03,248 like time to close the laptop, 775 00:33:03,248 --> 00:33:04,829 you know, time to like 776 00:33:03,410 --> 00:33:05,275 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 777 00:33:05,425 --> 00:33:08,566 the fun has crossed over into brain damage territory, 778 00:33:08,122 --> 00:33:10,642 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. 779 00:33:08,566 --> 00:33:12,968 right? Brain injury will is eminent. 780 00:33:10,642 --> 00:33:14,275 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 781 00:33:12,968 --> 00:33:14,741 all right. 782 00:33:14,275 --> 00:33:15,275 It's like it's 783 00:33:14,785 --> 00:33:19,407 like it's like the CTE version of like spending too much time on your laptop. 784 00:33:19,407 --> 00:33:20,407 It's like I have like, 785 00:33:19,716 --> 00:33:20,716 Yeah. 786 00:33:20,088 --> 00:33:22,959 you know, I have like concussive symptoms because I've been 787 00:33:22,467 --> 00:33:23,467 Yes. 788 00:33:23,109 --> 00:33:24,570 spending too much time on my laptop. 789 00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:25,570 Yeah. 790 00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:28,623 I mean, I I I feel the same way and now I definitely like I look at the kids 791 00:33:28,623 --> 00:33:30,324 and I'm like, get them off the screens, 792 00:33:30,324 --> 00:33:31,324 you know, but 793 00:33:30,575 --> 00:33:31,575 Right. 794 00:33:31,545 --> 00:33:33,276 they're playing games and stuff, 795 00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:37,509 you know. I'm sitting here like evaluating three different business opportunities 796 00:33:37,509 --> 00:33:40,702 and building three apps and and getting 797 00:33:38,284 --> 00:33:40,555 Yeah. Uh-huh. huh. 798 00:33:40,702 --> 00:33:44,224 updates from my chief of staff agent on things I need to do, 799 00:33:44,224 --> 00:33:45,224 and 800 00:33:44,428 --> 00:33:45,428 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 801 00:33:45,485 --> 00:33:49,108 and then I just have to close it and like go find a book and sit outside. 802 00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:50,932 Yeah. Yeah. I I 803 00:33:51,132 --> 00:33:54,683 I made an app for like tracking movies, 804 00:33:54,683 --> 00:34:00,466 shows, and episodes because there's things for tracking movies like Letterboxd 805 00:34:00,466 --> 00:34:02,487 and there's things for tracking TV series, 806 00:34:02,487 --> 00:34:04,909 but nothing allows you to track movies, 807 00:34:04,909 --> 00:34:07,991 series, and then individual episodes of series. 808 00:34:07,991 --> 00:34:12,514 And Nina and I have like a whole Halloween agenda of things to watch. 809 00:34:12,514 --> 00:34:14,555 We have a whole Christmas agenda of things to watch. 810 00:34:14,705 --> 00:34:21,236 And that includes like the summer ween episode of Gravity Falls is an episode 811 00:34:21,236 --> 00:34:23,397 of a show that we want to make sure we watch during Halloween. 812 00:34:23,397 --> 00:34:25,918 And then we'll also watch Wednesday, 813 00:34:25,918 --> 00:34:30,110 the series. And then we'll also watch the the Kristen Wig Ghostbusters. 814 00:34:30,110 --> 00:34:33,942 So like, but I made an app that allows you to build like these little like watch 815 00:34:33,942 --> 00:34:35,903 lists of those. And it it took me, 816 00:34:35,903 --> 00:34:39,394 you know, three hours while I was watching T V with Nina to build this thing. 817 00:34:39,394 --> 00:34:41,344 it's yeah, it's 818 00:34:41,494 --> 00:34:43,567 And that's, you know, like that's just like a useful thing, 819 00:34:43,567 --> 00:34:46,192 single server kind of, you know, 820 00:34:46,192 --> 00:34:48,416 vanity app that's fun to build. 821 00:34:48,416 --> 00:34:50,349 But yeah. 822 00:34:49,043 --> 00:34:50,405 So fun. Yeah. And 823 00:34:50,405 --> 00:34:52,684 when I think about work, you know, 824 00:34:52,684 --> 00:34:56,226 a lot of the things that I've been doing inside of adeo are building things 825 00:34:56,226 --> 00:34:58,367 so that the team can have more collaboration. 826 00:34:58,367 --> 00:35:00,128 you 827 00:34:58,757 --> 00:35:00,066 Yeah. Yeah. 828 00:35:00,128 --> 00:35:03,599 know, so it's like where's where's a place we can all go into where 829 00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:08,081 we can work together on this one particular creative challenge or 830 00:35:07,776 --> 00:35:08,776 Yeah. 831 00:35:08,232 --> 00:35:13,023 you know, or how can we create some automation around certain things that 832 00:35:13,023 --> 00:35:15,345 we do for like we have one particular client where 833 00:35:15,494 --> 00:35:19,619 It was like it would make sense to build kind of a an intelligence center 834 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,222 for this particular 835 00:35:20,137 --> 00:35:21,137 Yeah. Yep. 836 00:35:21,222 --> 00:35:24,434 client, i so that it's just going and running. 837 00:35:24,434 --> 00:35:26,987 And anyway, have to be careful about your 838 00:35:26,491 --> 00:35:27,491 Now we 839 00:35:26,987 --> 00:35:32,213 your your bills, of course, when you create some of these things that yeah. 840 00:35:29,677 --> 00:35:32,773 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That that's that's that's a consideration for sure. 841 00:35:32,773 --> 00:35:33,875 Yeah, I mean we we've 842 00:35:33,956 --> 00:35:35,869 so on the Pine Works side we've been doing the same. 843 00:35:35,869 --> 00:35:39,216 We've been, you know, kind of building Yeah, 844 00:35:36,595 --> 00:35:39,747 Yeah. Yeah, talk talk to me talk to me about what about 845 00:35:39,216 --> 00:35:40,216 yeah, yeah. 846 00:35:39,747 --> 00:35:44,190 Pine Works because I I will just say I've been fascinated by what you guys 847 00:35:44,190 --> 00:35:47,002 are up to ever since I heard Anthony talk about Bruce. 848 00:35:46,383 --> 00:35:49,228 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 849 00:35:47,002 --> 00:35:49,324 So and I'm 850 00:35:49,344 --> 00:35:52,476 I'm impressed and amazed at what you all have done and so I'd love 851 00:35:52,476 --> 00:35:53,476 to hear about that. 852 00:35:53,287 --> 00:35:57,641 Thank you. Yeah. So that that started as like a little internal sandboxy experiment 853 00:35:57,721 --> 00:36:00,343 with OpenClaw and 854 00:35:59,606 --> 00:36:00,606 OpenClaw, right. 855 00:36:00,363 --> 00:36:02,144 and trying to mess around with some agentics stuff. 856 00:36:02,144 --> 00:36:06,408 I mean, really, like there was like a weekend in February where Codex dropped 857 00:36:06,408 --> 00:36:08,189 and the new version of Claw dropped, 858 00:36:08,189 --> 00:36:13,114 and Ryan and Anthony both like disappeared for six days and came back 859 00:36:13,114 --> 00:36:17,407 and they had done like four months worth of work and were just like wholly 860 00:36:17,557 --> 00:36:19,969 transformed in their in their capability. 861 00:36:19,969 --> 00:36:21,530 And then when OpenClaw came out, 862 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,203 We started to mess around. So we we use Discord for yeah, 863 00:36:23,912 --> 00:36:27,545 And and for just just for for the normies listening, 864 00:36:25,203 --> 00:36:27,150 okay. Yeah. 865 00:36:27,545 --> 00:36:31,217 OpenClaw, just just explain explain what that is, 866 00:36:29,043 --> 00:36:33,246 Yes, yes. I mean right. 867 00:36:31,217 --> 00:36:33,347 because I don't think a lot of people might have caught that when 868 00:36:33,347 --> 00:36:34,347 it happened. 869 00:36:33,679 --> 00:36:40,354 So OpenClaw just adds an what's called an agentic layer to using AI tools or using, 870 00:36:40,354 --> 00:36:42,226 you know, your your laptop. You know, 871 00:36:42,226 --> 00:36:45,829 it it basically creates like a a how to best describe this. 872 00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:51,082 It's like a character it creates that can perform work and do tasks that lives 873 00:36:51,082 --> 00:36:55,652 on like a Mac mini typically or lives on some piece of machinery and 874 00:36:55,802 --> 00:36:58,604 You can just prompt it to do things and it will, 875 00:36:58,604 --> 00:37:01,957 on its own, you know, time with its own resources, 876 00:37:01,957 --> 00:37:06,470 complete tasks without your constant direction and supervision and guidance. 877 00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:08,662 So there's a little bit of a slippery slope to this. 878 00:37:08,662 --> 00:37:10,637 It feels a little scary because these things start to be a little 879 00:37:10,637 --> 00:37:13,566 bit more autonomous. And I think that triggers people for sure. 880 00:37:13,566 --> 00:37:18,715 so part of it is, you know, the the hygiene of putting it on 881 00:37:18,715 --> 00:37:21,298 a server somewhere and and it, 882 00:37:21,298 --> 00:37:22,298 you know. 883 00:37:21,688 --> 00:37:25,641 Curating its access to things and and really kind of putting infrastructure 884 00:37:25,641 --> 00:37:27,973 in place so that's stable and safe and secure. 885 00:37:27,973 --> 00:37:31,286 That that's a big part of it. but what's different about 886 00:37:29,712 --> 00:37:31,226 Right. But now 887 00:37:31,849 --> 00:37:33,713 now they're rolling out all sorts of I mean, 888 00:37:33,713 --> 00:37:35,249 everything's going agentic now, 889 00:37:34,306 --> 00:37:36,459 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 890 00:37:35,249 --> 00:37:36,312 so it's sort of like 891 00:37:36,459 --> 00:37:39,672 It's there's a whole like competitive landscape that's exploding 892 00:37:39,672 --> 00:37:44,898 now with other agentic things and tools and dot in your ChatGPT and 893 00:37:44,802 --> 00:37:45,802 Yeah. 894 00:37:45,279 --> 00:37:46,761 Meta has its own version of yeah, 895 00:37:46,761 --> 00:37:49,054 there's there's news there's yeah, 896 00:37:47,275 --> 00:37:49,495 Muse, yeah. so I think the g you know, 897 00:37:49,054 --> 00:37:50,235 there's a million versions of this. 898 00:37:49,495 --> 00:37:50,807 the goal is the 899 00:37:50,807 --> 00:37:52,117 the goal from these companies, 900 00:37:52,117 --> 00:37:55,739 right, is that they wanna be the you're all cons they want they wanna be 901 00:37:55,739 --> 00:37:57,190 the one to like, I don't know, 902 00:37:57,190 --> 00:37:59,728 I like face hugger an alien, like really, 903 00:37:59,728 --> 00:38:02,923 you know, like own you. 904 00:37:59,787 --> 00:38:02,508 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. 905 00:38:02,508 --> 00:38:03,508 Like there's 906 00:38:02,938 --> 00:38:06,650 like a hand gently covering your hand and like taking control of things. 907 00:38:05,622 --> 00:38:09,386 huh. It's just super creepy, 908 00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:10,642 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Like that is that is and and 'cause you 909 00:38:09,386 --> 00:38:10,386 right? 910 00:38:10,642 --> 00:38:12,052 know, and think about like what Meta wants. 911 00:38:12,052 --> 00:38:14,813 Meta wants all your data. Like that's what Meta's always wanted. 912 00:38:14,813 --> 00:38:16,364 Meta's wants all of your data, 913 00:38:16,364 --> 00:38:19,785 all of your personal understanding so they can pummel you with ads, 914 00:38:19,785 --> 00:38:20,966 like whatever the hell they're gonna do with it. 915 00:38:20,966 --> 00:38:24,437 So there's there's a lot going on on the commercial side of this. 916 00:38:24,437 --> 00:38:27,949 I think the thing that that we found valuable is so basically like 917 00:38:28,099 --> 00:38:32,510 Bruce, who you mentioned, Bruce is kind of our agent that lives in our Discord. 918 00:38:32,510 --> 00:38:34,061 So we use Discord instead of Slack. 919 00:38:34,061 --> 00:38:36,441 I don't know why. Anthony and Ryan like Discord. 920 00:38:36,441 --> 00:38:38,162 I think it's for creeps, but these guys like it. 921 00:38:38,162 --> 00:38:40,873 So we use Discord. So in our Discord, 922 00:38:40,873 --> 00:38:43,163 Bruce is a person that exists in our Discord. 923 00:38:43,163 --> 00:38:45,234 And Anthony set it up that Bruce has like an identity. 924 00:38:45,234 --> 00:38:47,975 He has a Pine Works email. He has a GitHub account. 925 00:38:47,975 --> 00:38:51,306 Like he functions like a member of the team in a variety of ways. 926 00:38:51,306 --> 00:38:55,047 And what we found is like the more. 927 00:38:55,047 --> 00:38:56,367 So basically what happened was. 928 00:38:57,977 --> 00:39:02,658 Basically, what happened was we realized that rather than go through 929 00:39:02,658 --> 00:39:06,429 the drudgery of document everything that we always talk about, 930 00:39:06,429 --> 00:39:11,069 we could essentially create an agent called Bruce who could pay attention 931 00:39:11,069 --> 00:39:12,760 to what happens in our Discord channels. 932 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,851 And then Bruce, paying attention to what happened in our Discord channels, 933 00:39:15,851 --> 00:39:17,811 could update information in our CRM. 934 00:39:17,811 --> 00:39:21,202 It could update information in different places in the Pine Works world based on. 935 00:39:21,352 --> 00:39:24,384 The observed behavior that Bruce was privy to because he was in 936 00:39:24,384 --> 00:39:27,856 our sales channel and he was in our marketing channel and he was 937 00:39:27,856 --> 00:39:29,587 in these other places. And then 938 00:39:29,186 --> 00:39:30,186 Okay. 939 00:39:29,587 --> 00:39:33,158 we kind of got carried away in a good way and realized actually, 940 00:39:33,158 --> 00:39:36,970 if we all start using Granola and we transcribe all of our calls, 941 00:39:36,970 --> 00:39:39,962 and then we connect Granola through an API to Bruce, 942 00:39:39,962 --> 00:39:44,595 like Bruce then is essentially a participant in all of our meetings and listening. 943 00:39:44,595 --> 00:39:48,327 And he's in our Slack or our Discord paying attention to that stuff. 944 00:39:48,477 --> 00:39:51,618 And if we just give him this agentic role of like, 945 00:39:51,618 --> 00:39:54,239 listen, you're our biz dev enablement partner. 946 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,210 So as you listen to our meetings and as you listen to our con and we, 947 00:39:57,210 --> 00:39:59,680 you know, we'll probably turn Granola off in certain cases, 948 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,921 but use Granola most of the time so it captures more. 949 00:40:01,921 --> 00:40:04,182 And then we found like he's really, 950 00:40:04,182 --> 00:40:08,343 really good at properly documenting and updating everything that's happening 951 00:40:08,493 --> 00:40:10,334 on the biz dev side because he's just 952 00:40:09,982 --> 00:40:10,982 Yeah. 953 00:40:10,334 --> 00:40:11,384 paying attention to all of it. 954 00:40:11,384 --> 00:40:13,705 And and as the as a biz dev guy. 955 00:40:13,855 --> 00:40:15,836 My superpower is not documenting things. 956 00:40:15,836 --> 00:40:17,777 Anybody that has ever worked with me, 957 00:40:17,777 --> 00:40:21,738 as a biz dev guy, will tell you my strong point is not documenting things. 958 00:40:21,738 --> 00:40:25,500 My strong point is being me in space with people. 959 00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:27,311 Like that's that's my strong point, 960 00:40:26,335 --> 00:40:30,422 Yeah. Yeah, y I resemble that comment. 961 00:40:27,311 --> 00:40:30,962 is like to go be that guy. Yeah. 962 00:40:30,422 --> 00:40:31,422 Yeah. 963 00:40:31,022 --> 00:40:36,635 So like the more I can go be that guy and not spend time documenting all this stuff, 964 00:40:36,635 --> 00:40:39,056 it's a better use of my inherent skills. 965 00:40:39,056 --> 00:40:40,807 Then we started to like, there's all these. 966 00:40:40,957 --> 00:40:46,271 ancillary benefits where if so so Ryan and Anthony had a call on Monday that 967 00:40:46,271 --> 00:40:48,852 I was not a part of. I just asked Bruce what happened on that call. 968 00:40:48,852 --> 00:40:51,533 Like what happened on the call with Ted on Monday morning? 969 00:40:51,533 --> 00:40:54,695 You know, and then I get a brief is there any you know next steps or anything 970 00:40:54,695 --> 00:40:58,318 I need to be aware of or something I need no like he's paying attention to 971 00:40:58,318 --> 00:41:01,530 all of it and allowing me to kind of like dip into or be a part 972 00:41:01,530 --> 00:41:02,881 of that meeting without being part of it. 973 00:41:02,881 --> 00:41:06,444 So that was that's where Bruce kind of originated from. 974 00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:06,776 So it started, yeah. 975 00:41:06,444 --> 00:41:07,444 Yeah. 976 00:41:07,324 --> 00:41:08,365 And now we're building 977 00:41:08,515 --> 00:41:14,247 Like sales enablement tools for actual enterprise that's built on a lot 978 00:41:14,247 --> 00:41:19,149 of the same attributes and a lot of the same like behaviors and and connections. 979 00:41:19,149 --> 00:41:20,489 So basically with one of our clients, 980 00:41:20,489 --> 00:41:22,019 we created this thing called Sam. 981 00:41:22,019 --> 00:41:25,911 Sam is their sales analysis management tool. 982 00:41:25,911 --> 00:41:29,032 and it's again hooked up through Granola. 983 00:41:29,032 --> 00:41:32,962 So this is an organization that has like a six person sales team. 984 00:41:33,112 --> 00:41:35,223 This person's not great at documenting things. 985 00:41:35,223 --> 00:41:37,743 This person documents things but a little bit the wrong way. 986 00:41:37,743 --> 00:41:39,334 This person's okay at documenting. 987 00:41:39,334 --> 00:41:44,305 So basically Sam sits on their HubSpot and he's connected to the Granola. 988 00:41:44,305 --> 00:41:49,465 And Sam just every day enriches all of their customer data perfectly based 989 00:41:49,465 --> 00:41:51,826 on clear directions and guidelines. 990 00:41:51,826 --> 00:41:55,534 And that's and that's part of where like I I think part of where the value 991 00:41:55,534 --> 00:41:57,687 of an agentic approach this comes from is. 992 00:41:57,837 --> 00:42:01,609 Anthony and Ryan are able to design these agents programmatically 993 00:42:01,759 --> 00:42:06,373 to always execute the same thing the same way every single time. 994 00:42:06,373 --> 00:42:09,074 And it the imagination never wanders off. 995 00:42:09,074 --> 00:42:12,427 The model never the model never yeah, 996 00:42:09,376 --> 00:42:11,747 That's important. Yeah. 'Cause drift is real, 997 00:42:11,747 --> 00:42:12,747 right? 998 00:42:12,427 --> 00:42:15,739 yeah. No, like it it it insulates you from like if you do this stuff on Claude, 999 00:42:15,739 --> 00:42:18,101 you can do versions of this stuff on Claude and ChatGPT, 1000 00:42:18,101 --> 00:42:19,472 you can do a lot of this stuff already. 1001 00:42:19,472 --> 00:42:21,383 The risk is if you're kind of 1002 00:42:21,533 --> 00:42:23,425 Working with the models and the models change. 1003 00:42:23,425 --> 00:42:24,886 If the model changes, if you whatever, 1004 00:42:24,886 --> 00:42:29,120 there's a lot of ways that this thing can become shaggy fairly quickly. 1005 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,873 The cool thing about designing very specific agents is like 1006 00:42:34,094 --> 00:42:40,989 Sam will properly document this information forever until 1007 00:42:40,989 --> 00:42:45,533 you tell Sam to stop. Like, and we'll never do it any differently because every time 1008 00:42:45,533 --> 00:42:47,054 there's this, you know, there's code. 1009 00:42:47,204 --> 00:42:50,385 That prompts Sam to do this thing exactly the same way every time. 1010 00:42:50,385 --> 00:42:53,886 And that's important. If you're trying to create a hygienic environment 1011 00:42:53,886 --> 00:42:57,897 in HubSpot with a big team, you need to have like good data. 1012 00:42:57,897 --> 00:42:59,998 Good data in, good data out, bad data in, 1013 00:42:59,998 --> 00:43:05,099 bad data out. So, you know, just passively connecting all that stuff then allows 1014 00:43:05,099 --> 00:43:09,220 that sales team to not have to worry about so much documentation burden. 1015 00:43:09,220 --> 00:43:13,322 Number one. Number two, it then allows the executive view over all 1016 00:43:13,322 --> 00:43:14,492 of that sales activity. 1017 00:43:14,642 --> 00:43:17,467 to have a crystal clear idea of what's going on in sales. 1018 00:43:17,467 --> 00:43:18,467 Like, 1019 00:43:17,724 --> 00:43:18,724 Right. 1020 00:43:18,031 --> 00:43:19,520 I don't have to vr I don't have to, 1021 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,137 you know, trust Susan when she tells me that this one deal feels like it's close 1022 00:43:23,137 --> 00:43:25,190 to closing. I can go in and see like 1023 00:43:23,978 --> 00:43:25,222 Yeah. Or or listen or 1024 00:43:25,222 --> 00:43:26,906 listen to their listen to their calls, 1025 00:43:26,906 --> 00:43:29,283 you know, or watch the recordings of their calls. 1026 00:43:27,916 --> 00:43:29,707 Exactly. Yeah, or listen to the calls or 1027 00:43:29,283 --> 00:43:30,283 Yeah. 1028 00:43:29,707 --> 00:43:34,561 all that. Like our buddy Will Reynolds is using this stuff at Sear and 1029 00:43:34,561 --> 00:43:38,633 he has this like transparency into all this stuff now that he didn't used 1030 00:43:38,633 --> 00:43:41,394 to have because he's able to just ask these questions. 1031 00:43:41,394 --> 00:43:44,976 Now he's, you know, it takes a while to get an organization to start 1032 00:43:44,976 --> 00:43:48,048 to use the right tools to to make this kind of transparency possible. 1033 00:43:48,048 --> 00:43:51,410 But once you do that, like and reporting is still kind of like 1034 00:43:51,410 --> 00:43:53,131 the checker's version of the outcome. 1035 00:43:53,131 --> 00:43:55,252 The chess version of the outcome is like. 1036 00:43:55,444 --> 00:44:00,887 Okay, well now our our Bruce or our Sam or whatever has been paying attention 1037 00:44:00,887 --> 00:44:04,019 to this data for so long and observing these patterns. 1038 00:44:04,019 --> 00:44:08,112 Like now I want you to like tell me who my sales prospects should be 1039 00:44:08,112 --> 00:44:09,332 and who should I reach out to. 1040 00:44:09,332 --> 00:44:11,383 Like based on all this observed behavior, 1041 00:44:11,383 --> 00:44:13,774 like what should I be saying differently that I'm, 1042 00:44:13,774 --> 00:44:16,245 you know, some of these calls are successful and some of them are not. 1043 00:44:16,245 --> 00:44:20,747 Like give me actual like strategy that I could choose or not choose to use. 1044 00:44:20,747 --> 00:44:22,088 Like that, that to me is like the 1045 00:44:22,238 --> 00:44:26,450 interesting next step in all this is it's amazing at documenting 1046 00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:31,005 and reporting all this stuff. It's actually not terrible at it it what it's really 1047 00:44:31,005 --> 00:44:35,757 good at is giving you like four B to C plus ideas. 1048 00:44:35,757 --> 00:44:37,367 And then you, because you're smart, 1049 00:44:37,367 --> 00:44:39,448 you say, screw that first two, 1050 00:44:39,448 --> 00:44:40,928 screw the last two. The one in the middle, 1051 00:44:40,928 --> 00:44:42,708 that one, if you just add 1052 00:44:41,398 --> 00:44:42,506 Interesting. Yeah. 1053 00:44:42,708 --> 00:44:44,899 this razzle dazzle to it, that's a really good idea. 1054 00:44:44,899 --> 00:44:47,160 And I am going to like, you know, 1055 00:44:47,310 --> 00:44:50,923 go prospecting for clients based on this criteria that you've identified that 1056 00:44:50,923 --> 00:44:52,724 now I can like use to 1057 00:44:52,305 --> 00:44:53,305 Right. 1058 00:44:52,724 --> 00:44:53,905 find more people to, you know, 1059 00:44:53,905 --> 00:44:57,088 reach out to. Like I think that's so that that's how our kind 1060 00:44:57,088 --> 00:45:01,801 of little sandboxy thing has turned into actual client implementation. 1061 00:45:01,951 --> 00:45:06,964 Well well that's I mean, wh what are what are you building that on? 1062 00:45:06,964 --> 00:45:10,987 If you're not if you're not working with a a clot or a codex or 1063 00:45:10,987 --> 00:45:14,259 or something like that, how are how are you setting that kind of structure up? 1064 00:45:14,409 --> 00:45:18,611 In in this particular case, for for Bruce in particular, 1065 00:45:18,611 --> 00:45:20,242 Bruce is connected to ChatGPT. 1066 00:45:20,242 --> 00:45:24,744 We d we are using that LLM as as the LLM at the heart of like a lot 1067 00:45:24,744 --> 00:45:26,171 of the logic that Bruce goes through. 1068 00:45:26,171 --> 00:45:28,827 We used Claude for a while. Billing 1069 00:45:28,201 --> 00:45:29,201 Yeah. 1070 00:45:28,827 --> 00:45:30,328 and money became an issue with Claude. 1071 00:45:30,328 --> 00:45:32,818 There was like a whole like I think that's now course corrected. 1072 00:45:32,818 --> 00:45:35,980 There like a minute where it became really punitive to use Claude. 1073 00:45:35,980 --> 00:45:38,762 We were burning too many tokens and and it became too expensive. 1074 00:45:38,762 --> 00:45:40,753 I think that has kind of like 1075 00:45:40,903 --> 00:45:44,246 calm down again. But yeah, there is there is like a there is an LLM in 1076 00:45:44,246 --> 00:45:46,418 the middle of it that allows for that kind of like, 1077 00:45:46,418 --> 00:45:49,340 you know, growing knowledge base that that but again, 1078 00:45:49,340 --> 00:45:54,624 even that is like super walled garden and curated and, 1079 00:45:54,624 --> 00:45:55,624 you know, it's 1080 00:45:55,641 --> 00:45:56,641 Yeah. 1081 00:45:55,955 --> 00:45:58,337 only being fed Pine Works things. 1082 00:45:58,337 --> 00:46:02,400 So it's only generating outcomes based on reality, 1083 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,961 not based on like, you know, Google searches and and whatever the hell else 1084 00:46:04,238 --> 00:46:06,600 Right, right. But for a c for for a client, 1085 00:46:05,961 --> 00:46:07,635 I'm going to be do. Yeah. 1086 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:07,761 for a client, 1087 00:46:07,761 --> 00:46:12,233 like so here's the thing. We were just talking about how several 1088 00:46:12,233 --> 00:46:15,404 of our we've heard stories, maybe it's happened to us, 1089 00:46:14,995 --> 00:46:18,552 yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1090 00:46:15,404 --> 00:46:19,247 where our ChatGPTs have our AIs have sent off some 1091 00:46:18,552 --> 00:46:19,552 Yeah. Yeah. 1092 00:46:19,448 --> 00:46:22,089 email without authority. 1093 00:46:21,448 --> 00:46:22,448 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1094 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,070 so there's this notion of high agency, 1095 00:46:24,070 --> 00:46:26,681 which I understand is is like super intelligence, 1096 00:46:26,681 --> 00:46:30,174 right? Like it will it will be it will have the smartest answer. 1097 00:46:30,324 --> 00:46:33,176 it will have it it will have the best solution and it will just 1098 00:46:33,176 --> 00:46:34,927 go execute that solution and then it will 1099 00:46:34,567 --> 00:46:35,567 Yeah, yeah. 1100 00:46:34,927 --> 00:46:36,928 also be continuing to make itself better. 1101 00:46:36,928 --> 00:46:39,329 So the self-improvement and you know, 1102 00:46:39,329 --> 00:46:41,131 all of that, if that's the goal, 1103 00:46:41,131 --> 00:46:45,433 like right now, it's terrifying to think that these things could go ahead 1104 00:46:45,433 --> 00:46:47,655 and just start doing whatever they want. 1105 00:46:46,325 --> 00:46:47,515 Yeah. Yeah. 1106 00:46:47,805 --> 00:46:50,706 Yeah. I agree. And I think I I agree entirely. 1107 00:46:50,706 --> 00:46:53,888 And I think that I was just talking to our friend Amanda Buck about this. 1108 00:46:53,888 --> 00:46:55,229 I was talking to Amanda about this. 1109 00:46:55,229 --> 00:47:00,201 That I think that people still like a user interface. 1110 00:47:00,201 --> 00:47:04,313 Like there's nothing about these tools that needs a interface. 1111 00:47:04,313 --> 00:47:08,555 Like it can just be a dialogue box and you could do whatever you want forever. 1112 00:47:08,705 --> 00:47:12,268 Just by typing stuff into a dialog box and it talking back to you. 1113 00:47:12,268 --> 00:47:17,823 We have, as an industry, grown up over the last 30 years to like some kind 1114 00:47:17,823 --> 00:47:20,415 of graphic user interface, some kind of dashboard, 1115 00:47:20,415 --> 00:47:24,078 some kind of like thoughtfully designed user experience, 1116 00:47:22,442 --> 00:47:23,965 Control panel, yeah. 1117 00:47:24,298 --> 00:47:28,062 control panel, you got it. Like some amount of like interface. 1118 00:47:26,132 --> 00:47:28,067 Well, right, but yeah, 1119 00:47:28,288 --> 00:47:30,152 our experience we care about yeah, 1120 00:47:30,152 --> 00:47:33,471 our experience using this thing has to be considered, 1121 00:47:30,638 --> 00:47:33,418 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 1122 00:47:33,471 --> 00:47:34,471 right? 1123 00:47:34,161 --> 00:47:39,894 Ex and I think what that does in a good way is it provides like a keyhole that 1124 00:47:39,894 --> 00:47:41,655 the information has to kind of squeak through. 1125 00:47:41,655 --> 00:47:43,546 Like, I don't want you to do everything. 1126 00:47:43,546 --> 00:47:46,308 I want this answer. I want that insight. 1127 00:47:46,308 --> 00:47:51,151 I want this report. Like if you c if you create those kinds of controls and, 1128 00:47:51,151 --> 00:47:52,772 you know, bottlenecks in certain places, 1129 00:47:52,772 --> 00:47:56,325 limitations in others, like just kind of build the guardrails around this stuff, 1130 00:47:56,325 --> 00:47:58,026 that's how you prevent it from 1131 00:47:58,176 --> 00:47:59,176 Totally. 1132 00:47:58,683 --> 00:48:01,714 Yeah, getting ambitious and sending emails you didn't expect it to send. 1133 00:48:01,714 --> 00:48:04,915 You know, like that that that's that's how you set the the guardrails 1134 00:48:04,915 --> 00:48:06,745 in place that like, you know, again, 1135 00:48:06,745 --> 00:48:09,456 if you if you build this agentic layer on top of it, 1136 00:48:09,456 --> 00:48:13,437 it's rigid. There's a there's a structure in a rigidity that I think 1137 00:48:13,557 --> 00:48:15,647 is powerful when you're gonna use, 1138 00:48:15,647 --> 00:48:17,178 you know, that this is sensitive information, 1139 00:48:17,178 --> 00:48:18,858 this is customer data, or this is, 1140 00:48:18,858 --> 00:48:20,289 you know, what whatever it is. 1141 00:48:20,289 --> 00:48:23,939 Like you wanna have you wanna build that kind of rigidity around it so that 1142 00:48:24,019 --> 00:48:25,970 not only is it not hallucinating. 1143 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:30,382 And drawing, you know, crazy conclusions or or kind of losing the thread 1144 00:48:30,382 --> 00:48:33,163 the more you use it. You also want to kind of limit its capability 1145 00:48:33,313 --> 00:48:38,215 and its output and have it only through the little keyholes in your dashboard. 1146 00:48:38,215 --> 00:48:42,647 You know, listen, I just I need you so another example of another project 1147 00:48:42,667 --> 00:48:48,370 is we're building this. So one of our clients has is a is a VC backed company 1148 00:48:48,370 --> 00:48:50,021 and they have these monthly board meetings. 1149 00:48:50,021 --> 00:48:52,232 And every month they have to make a report for the board. 1150 00:48:52,392 --> 00:48:53,723 And they have and it's stressful thing, 1151 00:48:53,723 --> 00:48:54,833 they to collect all these assets. 1152 00:48:54,833 --> 00:48:57,113 It's always like this like we use like we lose like 1153 00:48:56,783 --> 00:48:57,783 yeah. 1154 00:48:57,113 --> 00:49:00,126 a week of productivity working with them because they're scrambling to 1155 00:49:00,126 --> 00:49:02,438 put all this crap together at that point in the week. 1156 00:49:02,438 --> 00:49:06,410 And you know, Anthony's like, what if like can we stop? 1157 00:49:06,410 --> 00:49:09,082 Like, what if we stop that? Like what if instead, 1158 00:49:09,082 --> 00:49:14,215 like what if instead we build you a dashboard that is all the information that might 1159 00:49:14,215 --> 00:49:16,666 come out of your presentation deck, 1160 00:49:16,666 --> 00:49:18,977 but we can just feed this information. 1161 00:49:19,127 --> 00:49:20,648 And there's a little bit of curation too. 1162 00:49:20,648 --> 00:49:21,889 Like even with Bruce, I should have said this, 1163 00:49:21,889 --> 00:49:23,429 so forgive me. I should back up. 1164 00:49:23,429 --> 00:49:27,452 I still don't let Bruce do everything entirely by himself. 1165 00:49:27,452 --> 00:49:30,934 So when when Bruce goes through all of our every day, 1166 00:49:30,934 --> 00:49:33,416 Bruce goes through all of our conversations and all of our dialogue 1167 00:49:33,416 --> 00:49:37,828 and all these things, and it basically sends me a message with a numbered list 1168 00:49:37,828 --> 00:49:41,851 of all the changes and updates it proposes to make to our CRM. 1169 00:49:41,851 --> 00:49:45,223 So as the owner of the CRM, as the person in charge of this. 1170 00:49:45,373 --> 00:49:49,044 I go through all of Bruce's proposed updates one through 17, 1171 00:49:49,044 --> 00:49:53,575 and I tell him all are approved except for 13 and you know, 1172 00:49:53,575 --> 00:49:57,956 18. Or just 17. So 13 and 14. Like everything's approved for these two. 1173 00:49:57,956 --> 00:49:59,936 And and you and there's still things. 1174 00:49:59,936 --> 00:50:04,567 There's still things where like it's Bruce is like over indexing 1175 00:50:04,567 --> 00:50:06,197 and thinking there's more signal there than there is, 1176 00:50:06,197 --> 00:50:08,848 or Bruce is misunderstanding that this person's related. 1177 00:50:08,848 --> 00:50:10,809 Like there's still some in inefficiency 1178 00:50:10,130 --> 00:50:11,130 yeah. 1179 00:50:10,809 --> 00:50:12,009 and imperfection in there. So like 1180 00:50:12,159 --> 00:50:15,571 So again, in that in that example of like the the communicating this information 1181 00:50:15,571 --> 00:50:17,261 to a board meeting, you know, it's like, 1182 00:50:17,261 --> 00:50:20,953 so then, all right, instead of finance sending this information to 1183 00:50:20,953 --> 00:50:24,204 one person and this other team sending this information to another person, 1184 00:50:24,204 --> 00:50:26,065 and all now instead it's like, 1185 00:50:26,065 --> 00:50:27,986 listen, we're we're connected to this data. 1186 00:50:27,986 --> 00:50:31,167 You as the head of finance now look at the data as it's presented 1187 00:50:31,167 --> 00:50:34,569 in this dashboard and decide if it's accurate or something's missing. 1188 00:50:34,569 --> 00:50:37,640 Like you're more editing and curating than you are responsible 1189 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,241 for lugging this water up the hill. 1190 00:50:39,391 --> 00:50:40,832 out of the weld of the house. You know, 1191 00:50:40,832 --> 00:50:41,993 it's like you're not having to do that. 1192 00:50:41,993 --> 00:50:45,606 It is, it's already here. You just have to like curate it and make sure that it's 1193 00:50:45,606 --> 00:50:49,849 right. And then rather than poop out a presentation once a month, 1194 00:50:49,849 --> 00:50:52,291 like this dashboard's alive all the time. 1195 00:50:52,291 --> 00:50:55,583 If you want to jump in and take a look at it halfway into the month before 1196 00:50:55,583 --> 00:50:57,535 the next board meeting, it's accurate then. 1197 00:50:57,535 --> 00:51:00,037 It's accurate three quarters of the way through the month. 1198 00:51:00,037 --> 00:51:01,959 And it's accurate when the board meeting comes around. 1199 00:51:01,959 --> 00:51:07,003 And by the way, it can also create a presentation deck 1200 00:51:07,153 --> 00:51:11,605 fairly effectively because we've designed a design system and 1201 00:51:11,605 --> 00:51:15,777 a presentation deck style guide and all of these things that allow it 1202 00:51:15,777 --> 00:51:20,640 to like stitch together a pretty good looking PDF presentation that's downloadable 1203 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,102 for the people that still want to print it out and read it on top of their laptop. 1204 00:51:24,102 --> 00:51:27,134 Like so again, that's a it's it's good data in. 1205 00:51:27,134 --> 00:51:31,866 It it it it is only valuable built on all the good data that it's hoovering up. 1206 00:51:31,866 --> 00:51:34,057 And then it's can you take this thing 1207 00:51:34,207 --> 00:51:39,510 And can you create guardrails so that you curate the output and then design 1208 00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:41,742 it in such a way that meets user needs? 1209 00:51:41,742 --> 00:51:43,593 I think the reason I was talking to Amanda about this is like, 1210 00:51:43,593 --> 00:51:48,648 I think actually this is going to drive the need for smart UX designers. 1211 00:51:48,648 --> 00:51:50,819 This is not going to replace UX designers. 1212 00:51:50,819 --> 00:51:54,462 This is going to give UX designers a million more projects to work 1213 00:51:54,462 --> 00:51:56,824 on because a million more people are going to be able to build 1214 00:51:56,824 --> 00:51:59,136 a million more things, but still need. 1215 00:51:59,286 --> 00:52:03,420 someone who knows what the hell they're talking about to design that interface 1216 00:52:03,420 --> 00:52:07,575 or design that dashboard or design whatever their love language is. 1217 00:52:05,984 --> 00:52:08,556 You know, a lot a lot along those lines, 1218 00:52:07,575 --> 00:52:09,140 Yeah. 1219 00:52:08,556 --> 00:52:09,556 I was just talking 1220 00:52:09,416 --> 00:52:12,469 to one of one of the folks that works at adeo, 1221 00:52:12,469 --> 00:52:18,853 and she wants to get more exposed to UX design and UX strategy. 1222 00:52:18,853 --> 00:52:21,445 And she was looking at some classes, 1223 00:52:21,445 --> 00:52:26,259 and I said, you know, one of the things you can do is just start building things, 1224 00:52:26,259 --> 00:52:29,901 just start building interfaces and then react to them, 1225 00:52:29,901 --> 00:52:32,363 guide them, curate them, because 1226 00:52:30,693 --> 00:52:32,258 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1227 00:52:32,513 --> 00:52:36,316 that's gonna immediately throw you in and have conversations about them 1228 00:52:36,936 --> 00:52:41,368 with other people, but like you can get hands-on much 1229 00:52:40,734 --> 00:52:41,734 Mm-hmm. 1230 00:52:41,448 --> 00:52:43,890 more quickly doing this kind of work too. 1231 00:52:43,742 --> 00:52:44,742 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 1232 00:52:44,574 --> 00:52:47,960 And and so I think that you know there's you don't have that barrier 1233 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:54,540 of like needing to learn all of the skills to to create the user interface, 1234 00:52:52,068 --> 00:52:55,259 Yeah, a yes. Yes. 1235 00:52:55,261 --> 00:52:58,463 but you do have to really understand how to how to curate. 1236 00:52:58,463 --> 00:52:59,974 Again, 1237 00:52:58,970 --> 00:53:00,161 Well and I and I think that that 1238 00:53:00,161 --> 00:53:05,325 is, yeah. I have another client who has been a little nervous in the service about, 1239 00:53:05,325 --> 00:53:10,589 you know, we we design, we make brands and we design marketing websites. 1240 00:53:10,589 --> 00:53:14,271 You know, is AI gonna gobble up the work we do? 1241 00:53:14,271 --> 00:53:18,125 You know, is AI gonna get good at making any marketing making marketing websites? 1242 00:53:18,125 --> 00:53:20,557 And then nobody needs me to make marketing websites anymore. 1243 00:53:20,557 --> 00:53:23,460 And my stance has always been and remains. 1244 00:53:23,610 --> 00:53:27,171 It's gonna like if you have a developer building these things in Webflow 1245 00:53:27,371 --> 00:53:28,972 or making these things in WordPress, 1246 00:53:28,972 --> 00:53:33,404 in the year of our Lord 2026, that developer's not writing code anymore. 1247 00:53:33,404 --> 00:53:37,546 Like that's already done. That developer is working with whatever tools they 1248 00:53:37,546 --> 00:53:39,347 use to write the code for them, 1249 00:53:39,347 --> 00:53:42,258 and they're editing and they're overseeing and they're managing like 1250 00:53:42,258 --> 00:53:46,230 a fictional dev team of coders that are writing lines of code and they're 1251 00:53:46,230 --> 00:53:47,640 not really writing code anymore. 1252 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:48,801 And then similarly. 1253 00:53:48,951 --> 00:53:50,542 That is coming on the design side, 1254 00:53:50,542 --> 00:53:53,654 where, like, you know, I'm going to design this brand, 1255 00:53:53,654 --> 00:53:55,685 I'm going to design this editorial, 1256 00:53:55,685 --> 00:53:57,656 whatever, the guidelines and all this stuff. 1257 00:53:57,656 --> 00:54:00,506 If I need to make a component for a website, 1258 00:54:00,506 --> 00:54:02,097 I mean, I could make the component, 1259 00:54:02,097 --> 00:54:05,839 or I could just use a tool to create the component based on the 1260 00:54:05,533 --> 00:54:06,533 Right. 1261 00:54:07,199 --> 00:54:08,770 part that is the important part, 1262 00:54:08,770 --> 00:54:10,121 that's always been the important part, 1263 00:54:10,121 --> 00:54:12,682 that is the important part for your person learning UX. 1264 00:54:12,682 --> 00:54:15,674 The important part is the upfront discovery. 1265 00:54:16,202 --> 00:54:20,568 definition, user research, stakeholder research, 1266 00:54:20,568 --> 00:54:23,731 all that soft skill stuff, that's always been, 1267 00:54:23,731 --> 00:54:25,674 that's always been the secret sauce. 1268 00:54:25,674 --> 00:54:29,218 Right? Even back to you and I making websites in, 1269 00:54:29,218 --> 00:54:30,811 you know, 2011. 1270 00:54:30,961 --> 00:54:33,052 No, there's no there's no way to leapfrog that. 1271 00:54:33,052 --> 00:54:34,052 Absolutely. 1272 00:54:33,926 --> 00:54:37,339 That's the that is it's your then that's another area where like the journey 1273 00:54:37,339 --> 00:54:40,622 is the thing. Like you have to go through those conversations. 1274 00:54:40,622 --> 00:54:43,574 You have to have a workshop. You have to talk to the librarian who's 1275 00:54:43,574 --> 00:54:46,557 got crazy fucking ideas for what they want the website 1276 00:54:46,164 --> 00:54:47,164 I know. 1277 00:54:46,557 --> 00:54:48,488 to be. Like, you gotta do all that stuff. 1278 00:54:48,488 --> 00:54:52,061 Like there's no get so like I think that's where Yeah, 1279 00:54:50,223 --> 00:54:53,504 the librarians. Sorry, PTSD, 1280 00:54:52,061 --> 00:54:53,622 yeah, totally, man. Like here they come. 1281 00:54:53,504 --> 00:54:54,504 yeah. 1282 00:54:53,982 --> 00:54:56,044 Here comes the librarian, like over the over the rope. 1283 00:54:56,044 --> 00:54:57,875 You thought you were done, and then the librarian comes in, 1284 00:54:57,875 --> 00:55:00,417 like, Jesus Christ. but like, 1285 00:55:00,417 --> 00:55:01,417 but but 1286 00:55:01,444 --> 00:55:05,376 That is, that's the part that everyone who's good has always been good 1287 00:55:05,376 --> 00:55:08,638 at and kind of not really valued it enough. 1288 00:55:08,638 --> 00:55:09,968 And that's the part that, like, 1289 00:55:09,968 --> 00:55:13,949 yeah, like you can you can make interfaces and you can make user experience, 1290 00:55:13,949 --> 00:55:17,271 but like the skill you have to develop and why you need to talk to people about 1291 00:55:17,271 --> 00:55:20,263 it to your point, is like, what does the user need? 1292 00:55:20,263 --> 00:55:23,334 What does the user say they need and what do they actually need? 1293 00:55:23,334 --> 00:55:24,725 What do they think they need? 1294 00:55:23,684 --> 00:55:24,805 Right. Well, I should I should 1295 00:55:24,955 --> 00:55:28,307 yeah. It's like that's why I've I back to this conversation I had, 1296 00:55:28,307 --> 00:55:31,458 I I was like, make things that you need. 1297 00:55:31,458 --> 00:55:34,950 Right. So make tools that you need in your job. 1298 00:55:31,668 --> 00:55:33,898 Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. 1299 00:55:33,898 --> 00:55:35,558 Yes. Yes. 1300 00:55:35,697 --> 00:55:39,198 And then then you'll have something to respond to because you'll be like, 1301 00:55:39,161 --> 00:55:42,226 Yeah. Cause you'll know it's exactly not what you need. 1302 00:55:39,198 --> 00:55:40,869 well, this isn't really working for me. 1303 00:55:40,869 --> 00:55:44,851 Right, right. So it's not like just make, 1304 00:55:42,226 --> 00:55:44,740 You will know. Right. Yeah, exactly. 1305 00:55:44,740 --> 00:55:47,104 Right. Fictional. Right. Yeah, 1306 00:55:44,851 --> 00:55:47,382 you know, imaginary things that you have no right. 1307 00:55:47,104 --> 00:55:48,104 yeah. Yes. 1308 00:55:48,123 --> 00:55:50,364 so I think the I think the process of 1309 00:55:50,484 --> 00:55:56,772 building our own things right now is really exciting to me because 1310 00:55:54,811 --> 00:55:57,965 Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. 1311 00:55:56,772 --> 00:55:57,994 I think that 1312 00:55:58,144 --> 00:56:01,999 that's just the best way I think we can learn all of this stuff. 1313 00:56:02,149 --> 00:56:08,572 Yeah, there there's there's a really interesting analogy to the cost of aluminum. 1314 00:56:08,572 --> 00:56:11,433 So at one point the cost of aluminum was incredibly high, 1315 00:56:11,433 --> 00:56:13,264 and aluminum was not in anything. 1316 00:56:13,264 --> 00:56:17,106 And then as the turn of the century happened and it became cheaper to find 1317 00:56:17,106 --> 00:56:18,476 and mine and produce aluminum, 1318 00:56:18,476 --> 00:56:21,226 the price of aluminum dropped insanely, 1319 00:56:21,226 --> 00:56:23,076 and then everything was made out of aluminum. 1320 00:56:23,076 --> 00:56:24,987 Same thing's happening with like software. 1321 00:56:24,987 --> 00:56:27,998 It's like when the cost to produce software goes down. 1322 00:56:28,148 --> 00:56:31,209 The demand goes way up. Like if it's easier, 1323 00:56:31,209 --> 00:56:33,280 faster, like, and that's what has to change too. 1324 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:37,602 Like you can't you can't live in this world where like I only do nine month projects 1325 00:56:37,602 --> 00:56:39,503 that cost $300,000. It's like, 1326 00:56:39,503 --> 00:56:44,395 what if you lived in a world where you did 12 projects that cost $30,000 1327 00:56:44,395 --> 00:56:48,496 in six months and you made $360,000 in one third less the time? 1328 00:56:48,496 --> 00:56:50,976 Like, isn't that cool? Like, what do you care? 1329 00:56:50,976 --> 00:56:52,657 Like, does it have to take nine months? 1330 00:56:52,657 --> 00:56:54,568 Like, do you have to have one client? 1331 00:56:54,568 --> 00:56:55,568 Like 1332 00:56:54,918 --> 00:56:58,280 Wouldn't it be better to have like a variety of things going on with 1333 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,741 a lot more people that didn't used to be able to hire you? 1334 00:57:00,741 --> 00:57:04,344 You know, like didn't used to have the resources and the the budget and 1335 00:57:04,344 --> 00:57:05,761 all that to actually engage with stuff. 1336 00:57:05,761 --> 00:57:09,627 Like, no, like now I can now that I'm doing things a little bit faster 1337 00:57:09,627 --> 00:57:11,959 and I'm doing things a little bit more, 1338 00:57:11,959 --> 00:57:13,600 you know, efficiently, or whatever that is, 1339 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,592 and I can then I can afford to bring my price down a little bit. 1340 00:57:16,592 --> 00:57:18,844 Like, you know, I I can the value is still the value. 1341 00:57:18,844 --> 00:57:20,294 And there's a whole conversation about like, 1342 00:57:20,294 --> 00:57:22,285 you know, the value you provide and how much 1343 00:57:22,435 --> 00:57:24,445 I'm here for that. But at the same time, 1344 00:57:24,445 --> 00:57:28,858 like there is there is a just changing with the environment such that 1345 00:57:28,858 --> 00:57:30,849 I mean you've you've been talking about this on your podcast and you've been talking 1346 00:57:30,849 --> 00:57:31,849 about this for the past two years. 1347 00:57:31,809 --> 00:57:35,441 Like there's in in the world of higher ed that you spend a lot of time in, 1348 00:57:35,441 --> 00:57:40,618 there's a lot of muscle memory where a project is a thing that you do every four 1349 00:57:40,618 --> 00:57:45,235 or five years and it takes a year to do it and it costs $350,000. 1350 00:57:45,235 --> 00:57:46,296 Like that's like the muscle 1351 00:57:45,669 --> 00:57:46,669 Yeah. 1352 00:57:46,296 --> 00:57:49,507 memory of higher ed is like that's that's how this stuff works, 1353 00:57:49,507 --> 00:57:50,518 right? And 1354 00:57:49,980 --> 00:57:50,980 Yeah. 1355 00:57:50,668 --> 00:57:52,728 You're out here saying like, not really. 1356 00:57:52,728 --> 00:57:56,109 Like we could do something amazingly impactful and we can do it 1357 00:57:56,109 --> 00:58:00,081 in like twelve weeks. And we can do it for like ninety thousand dollars. 1358 00:58:00,081 --> 00:58:01,592 Like, don't you want to talk about that? 1359 00:58:01,592 --> 00:58:04,313 Like, don't you want to talk about something that like costs vastly less 1360 00:58:04,553 --> 00:58:09,255 and is ready much faster and still like advances your business objectives? 1361 00:58:09,255 --> 00:58:10,255 Like 1362 00:58:09,655 --> 00:58:14,559 Yeah. I also think, you know, this is another aspect of the conversation that 1363 00:58:14,599 --> 00:58:16,110 all the agency people are always having, 1364 00:58:16,110 --> 00:58:18,883 which is like value-based pricing versus time-based pricing. 1365 00:58:18,341 --> 00:58:19,554 Hmm. Yeah. 1366 00:58:18,883 --> 00:58:19,883 And 1367 00:58:19,973 --> 00:58:23,306 the the reality is that you're you still like if if you're gonna 1368 00:58:23,306 --> 00:58:26,608 be able to accomplish a what should should have been maybe 1369 00:58:26,608 --> 00:58:29,650 a sixteen-month-long higher ed website dig you know, 1370 00:58:29,650 --> 00:58:31,492 website project, and let's say that you're like, 1371 00:58:31,492 --> 00:58:35,855 I think we can do this in six months or five months, 1372 00:58:35,855 --> 00:58:36,855 that 1373 00:58:36,575 --> 00:58:39,775 Compression also means kind of like an all in, 1374 00:58:39,775 --> 00:58:42,506 you know, like team teams are shrinking, 1375 00:58:42,506 --> 00:58:43,846 you know. So I'm thinking a lot about like, 1376 00:58:43,412 --> 00:58:44,475 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1377 00:58:43,846 --> 00:58:44,846 okay, 1378 00:58:44,536 --> 00:58:48,047 if you've got the A team on your project using AI, 1379 00:58:47,402 --> 00:58:48,650 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1380 00:58:48,047 --> 00:58:49,238 we can accomplish 1381 00:58:49,238 --> 00:58:52,449 what we would have taken 16 months in five, 1382 00:58:51,294 --> 00:58:53,146 Yeah. A hundred percent. 1383 00:58:52,449 --> 00:58:53,449 but 1384 00:58:53,149 --> 00:58:57,340 that doesn't necessarily mean that I think the the cost drops. 1385 00:58:57,340 --> 00:59:01,522 I think what what drops is the always painful, 1386 00:59:01,522 --> 00:59:02,522 like 1387 00:59:02,022 --> 00:59:06,469 thing where you're charging an agency rate for an hour where you're doing intern 1388 00:59:05,718 --> 00:59:07,326 Yeah. Yeah. 1389 00:59:06,469 --> 00:59:07,469 level work. You know, 1390 00:59:07,451 --> 00:59:09,956 we can cut all of that out. So I think that 1391 00:59:09,555 --> 00:59:10,555 Yes. 1392 00:59:09,956 --> 00:59:14,563 makes efficiencies much better and speed much faster and all those things. 1393 00:59:13,288 --> 00:59:15,689 Yep. And I I yeah, it 1394 00:59:14,563 --> 00:59:15,645 But, you know, 1395 00:59:15,689 --> 00:59:19,262 it really comes down to if you have an abundance attitude or a scarcity attitude 1396 00:59:19,176 --> 00:59:20,176 Yeah, yeah. 1397 00:59:19,322 --> 00:59:20,322 as a human being. 1398 00:59:20,413 --> 00:59:22,875 Like, how are you wired? I'm spoiled. 1399 00:59:22,875 --> 00:59:25,346 I grew up in this like, you know, 1400 00:59:25,346 --> 00:59:30,960 environment of abundance, having worked at Happy Cog when it was like a season 1401 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:32,942 to be working at Happy Cog. Like that was a good time 1402 00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:33,560 Yeah. 1403 00:59:32,942 --> 00:59:35,163 to be learning the ropes at that point. 1404 00:59:35,163 --> 00:59:38,486 So I'm I'm wired with that kind of inherent attitude. 1405 00:59:38,486 --> 00:59:39,486 You know, like 1406 00:59:39,418 --> 00:59:40,919 The way that Pine, the Pine Works team, 1407 00:59:40,919 --> 00:59:43,371 they're all happy cog people. The way they're all wired is like, 1408 00:59:43,371 --> 00:59:45,342 I don't know, can we do more for clients now? 1409 00:59:45,342 --> 00:59:46,682 Like they can pay us the same. 1410 00:59:46,682 --> 00:59:51,416 We can do a lot more. Like, not not let's not figure out how to like winnow what 1411 00:59:51,416 --> 00:59:53,949 we do down and and cut hours. No, 1412 00:59:53,949 --> 00:59:55,511 like pay us what you were gonna pay us, 1413 00:59:55,511 --> 00:59:57,513 but like look at all the other stuff we can do now too, 1414 00:59:57,513 --> 00:59:59,585 besides just the stuff that you wanted to do. 1415 00:59:59,585 --> 01:00:02,016 And on our end, it's like, what do we care? 1416 01:00:02,016 --> 01:00:04,448 What do we care if we're we're just doing the work? 1417 01:00:04,448 --> 01:00:06,318 Like, I'm doing three hours worth 1418 01:00:05,785 --> 01:00:06,785 Yeah. 1419 01:00:06,318 --> 01:00:07,318 of work. 1420 01:00:06,750 --> 01:00:09,573 If I got like 12 hours worth of work done in three hours, 1421 01:00:09,573 --> 01:00:13,385 what am I gonna like withhold nine hours because I'm penny pinching 1422 01:00:13,385 --> 01:00:16,058 and like looking at a spreadsheet of like hours tracked? 1423 01:00:16,058 --> 01:00:18,209 Like, I think that generally I think 1424 01:00:17,496 --> 01:00:18,496 Yeah, no. 1425 01:00:18,209 --> 01:00:20,731 that you know, when you talk about like value pricing, 1426 01:00:20,731 --> 01:00:23,533 I think you have to establish your value. 1427 01:00:23,533 --> 01:00:26,585 And you have to decide what your output is worth. 1428 01:00:26,585 --> 01:00:27,585 I think anybody 1429 01:00:27,238 --> 01:00:28,238 Sure. 1430 01:00:27,575 --> 01:00:31,469 that tells you, you and I both know some value pricing ding-dongs 1431 01:00:31,469 --> 01:00:32,530 who like to pretend 1432 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:34,823 They can like calculate what a project is like, 1433 01:00:34,823 --> 01:00:36,706 come on, give me a break. Like, 1434 01:00:36,706 --> 01:00:40,159 you can't. You can sell a lot of I'm not gonna go there. 1435 01:00:40,159 --> 01:00:43,048 What you can do. Yeah, good. 1436 01:00:40,643 --> 01:00:43,134 Yeah. But I th yeah. 1437 01:00:43,284 --> 01:00:48,987 I I I think your your point about how much more we can deliver within the parameters 1438 01:00:48,104 --> 01:00:49,104 Yeah. 1439 01:00:48,987 --> 01:00:55,010 of of what we were doing before is is incrementally has changed 1440 01:00:55,010 --> 01:00:57,331 and is is exciting. Because when I'm hearing 1441 01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:57,155 Yeah. Yeah. 1442 01:00:57,631 --> 01:00:59,632 when I'm talking to a client, I'm hearing them talk about 1443 01:00:59,632 --> 01:01:02,703 the problems they're currently having that might be related to, 1444 01:01:02,703 --> 01:01:05,034 you know, the specific thing we're supposed to solve. 1445 01:01:05,034 --> 01:01:06,445 I'm 1446 01:01:06,093 --> 01:01:07,093 Yeah. 1447 01:01:06,445 --> 01:01:07,445 thinking of like 1448 01:01:07,195 --> 01:01:09,200 Other things, how else can we help her solve 1449 01:01:08,406 --> 01:01:09,406 A hundred percent. 1450 01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:13,443 that problem? How else can we make this part of that problem easier for her too? 1451 01:01:11,926 --> 01:01:13,787 Yes. And that's why you're special. 1452 01:01:13,443 --> 01:01:14,443 Not just 1453 01:01:13,787 --> 01:01:14,787 That that's 1454 01:01:14,158 --> 01:01:17,930 like that's why you'll always have value because you're you're able to kind 1455 01:01:17,930 --> 01:01:21,552 of be be effective in the context of the problem you're solving. 1456 01:01:21,552 --> 01:01:25,183 And you have a million other experiences that lead you to 1457 01:01:25,183 --> 01:01:28,776 a million other conclusions that allow you to like bring a much different, 1458 01:01:28,776 --> 01:01:31,348 bigger, interesting perspective to this stuff. 1459 01:01:31,348 --> 01:01:32,978 And yeah, like if we do all this, 1460 01:01:32,978 --> 01:01:36,190 isn't gonna f in a fun way spill over into here and can't we like, 1461 01:01:36,190 --> 01:01:37,190 you know. 1462 01:01:36,941 --> 01:01:38,531 grab some of that too while we're here, 1463 01:01:38,531 --> 01:01:40,592 or like, doesn't this open the door for this? 1464 01:01:40,592 --> 01:01:43,133 And shouldn't you be thinking about this if we're able to if we're able 1465 01:01:43,133 --> 01:01:44,923 to pull these insights out of this, 1466 01:01:44,923 --> 01:01:48,074 like to me that's and again, like, 1467 01:01:48,074 --> 01:01:49,665 and this is back to our previous conference, 1468 01:01:49,665 --> 01:01:53,006 like you got to the ability to do that because you have 20, 1469 01:01:53,006 --> 01:01:56,587 25 years of of time in the gym learning this, 1470 01:01:56,587 --> 01:01:59,427 thinking like this, you know, building this skill set. 1471 01:01:59,427 --> 01:02:02,128 and I think that's that's the part that like 1472 01:02:02,278 --> 01:02:06,522 Really is super special. And that is the part that I think these tools will struggle 1473 01:02:06,522 --> 01:02:08,173 to approximate for a while. Maybe, 1474 01:02:08,173 --> 01:02:12,207 maybe in time they will, and and there's that kind of challenge down the road. 1475 01:02:12,207 --> 01:02:18,060 But for right now, like the ability for you to like listen to what people need 1476 01:02:18,381 --> 01:02:21,614 and like be able to see down the block at around the corner. 1477 01:02:21,614 --> 01:02:24,266 Like I'm like, I'm like 15 minutes smarter than you. 1478 01:02:24,266 --> 01:02:25,266 I'm not. 1479 01:02:24,997 --> 01:02:27,208 a thousand times I'm fifteen minutes smarter than you. 1480 01:02:27,208 --> 01:02:29,608 I can see a little bit further down the road and I can see around 1481 01:02:29,608 --> 01:02:32,339 the corner because I've done this before or I've have all these reps, 1482 01:02:32,339 --> 01:02:38,880 like the the the the ability to understand what people 1483 01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:42,560 need and then the ability to be that kind of like prognosticator. 1484 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,060 I think you know ensures that you're always valuable. 1485 01:02:45,060 --> 01:02:48,611 And I think again like that's that's what you're trying to like that just trying 1486 01:02:48,611 --> 01:02:50,312 to solve problems. Like that that's 1487 01:02:50,462 --> 01:02:53,773 You know, what do you care if the solution's a website or the solutions 1488 01:02:53,773 --> 01:02:55,323 an app or the solutions of whatever? 1489 01:02:55,323 --> 01:02:56,744 Like you just need this problem solved. 1490 01:02:56,744 --> 01:02:57,784 So, you know, 1491 01:02:57,274 --> 01:02:58,274 Yeah. 1492 01:02:57,934 --> 01:03:00,305 consider doing it this way. I I think it's yeah, 1493 01:03:00,305 --> 01:03:03,886 and I think it's just it's exciting to be a part of the industry when there 1494 01:03:03,886 --> 01:03:09,727 is this it's like there's a whole extra set of paint colors in your paint 1495 01:03:09,727 --> 01:03:12,878 set all of a sudden. Like I've been working with like 18 paints and 1496 01:03:12,878 --> 01:03:15,179 now there's like six more that I've like 1497 01:03:15,329 --> 01:03:16,719 I didn't know those colors existed. 1498 01:03:15,453 --> 01:03:18,674 Yeah. And like and like six 1499 01:03:16,719 --> 01:03:18,453 It's it's just a very yeah. 1500 01:03:18,674 --> 01:03:23,235 studio assistants to be stretching canvases and priming paper 1501 01:03:22,137 --> 01:03:24,062 Yeah, right, exactly right. That's exactly right. 1502 01:03:23,315 --> 01:03:28,187 and getting messages out to the buyers and organizing shows and sol you know, 1503 01:03:24,062 --> 01:03:28,062 That's exactly right. Right. Yeah, 1504 01:03:28,062 --> 01:03:30,718 yeah, yeah. Yeah, dog, all that stuff. 1505 01:03:28,187 --> 01:03:30,777 submitting port like the amount yeah, 1506 01:03:30,718 --> 01:03:31,831 Right. Yeah. 1507 01:03:30,777 --> 01:03:32,078 the amount of help 1508 01:03:32,228 --> 01:03:35,029 that and again for solopreneurs, 1509 01:03:35,029 --> 01:03:37,640 for in individual artists, you know, 1510 01:03:36,035 --> 01:03:39,807 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah. 1511 01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:39,900 small teams, it's 1512 01:03:40,100 --> 01:03:41,701 so powerful. I think 1513 01:03:41,771 --> 01:03:42,771 Yes. 1514 01:03:42,117 --> 01:03:45,658 For the big enterprises that already have like so much complexity 1515 01:03:44,779 --> 01:03:45,779 Yes, yes, yes. 1516 01:03:45,658 --> 01:03:48,197 baked into them, it's gonna take a while to 1517 01:03:48,093 --> 01:03:49,093 Agreed. 1518 01:03:48,563 --> 01:03:51,174 I agree. And we and Pine Works would agree with you too. 1519 01:03:51,174 --> 01:03:52,174 I think like that's 1520 01:03:51,578 --> 01:03:52,578 Yeah. 1521 01:03:52,184 --> 01:03:53,725 in our limited amount of, you know, 1522 01:03:53,725 --> 01:03:55,895 we've been doing this for like nine months. 1523 01:03:55,895 --> 01:03:58,535 So bear with me. But everybody's been doing it for nine months. 1524 01:03:58,535 --> 01:04:01,075 So that's how much we know. In our experience, 1525 01:04:01,075 --> 01:04:02,786 if you're an individual person, 1526 01:04:02,786 --> 01:04:06,637 like one-shotting a cool thing in Claude, 1527 01:04:06,637 --> 01:04:08,437 one-shotting a cool thing at ChatGPT, 1528 01:04:08,437 --> 01:04:11,298 it's probably the way to go. Like you're one person. 1529 01:04:11,298 --> 01:04:14,529 Those kind of tools are pretty appropriate to you having. 1530 01:04:14,679 --> 01:04:17,681 five administrative assistants that do a variety of things. 1531 01:04:17,681 --> 01:04:19,603 Like you could do a lot of that just in ChatGPT, 1532 01:04:19,603 --> 01:04:21,594 just in Claude. If you're in enterprise, 1533 01:04:21,594 --> 01:04:28,029 there's a scale and a vastness and there's an enterprise kind of it's Conway's law. 1534 01:04:28,029 --> 01:04:31,912 Like the the nature of the environment kind of forces itself on 1535 01:04:31,912 --> 01:04:36,526 the tools and process. Like they're gonna like they'll use AI tools in Salesforce. 1536 01:04:36,526 --> 01:04:40,839 They'll use AI tools in massive enterprise software because that is 1537 01:04:40,989 --> 01:04:42,900 how business is done at that kind of level. 1538 01:04:42,900 --> 01:04:44,732 The agentic stuff that you and I are talking about, 1539 01:04:44,732 --> 01:04:49,556 we've found like the the right size for that is like a team 1540 01:04:49,556 --> 01:04:52,498 of five to nine or ten people. 1541 01:04:52,498 --> 01:04:55,881 Like that's kind of the sweet spot for where these agentic tools become really 1542 01:04:56,031 --> 01:04:59,993 interesting and valuable because there's enough complexity that it's 1543 01:04:59,993 --> 01:05:02,215 not possible for ever for one person to know what the other 1544 01:05:02,215 --> 01:05:05,687 six people they're working on or to have like a completely clear view 1545 01:05:05,687 --> 01:05:06,687 of what they're working on. 1546 01:05:06,702 --> 01:05:08,953 But it's few enough people that you can define that. 1547 01:05:08,953 --> 01:05:10,893 It's few enough people that you can figure out, 1548 01:05:10,893 --> 01:05:14,065 like, okay, the Tracey puzzle piece and the Joe puzzle piece and 1549 01:05:14,065 --> 01:05:16,175 the Amanda puzzle piece and the Jamie puzzle piece, 1550 01:05:16,175 --> 01:05:18,366 like this is how they all have to interact with one another. 1551 01:05:18,366 --> 01:05:21,096 And I can map all that out. And then I can start to build systems 1552 01:05:21,096 --> 01:05:23,447 or process or whatever that, you know, 1553 01:05:23,447 --> 01:05:26,288 whatever, make it possible for Tracey to know what Joe is working on, 1554 01:05:26,288 --> 01:05:29,379 or make it possible for Joe to know that these are the requirements that Tracey has. 1555 01:05:29,849 --> 01:05:34,473 In a in a small discrete set of people who have related jobs, 1556 01:05:34,473 --> 01:05:38,296 I think that that's where we're seeing the most traction with these agentic little 1557 01:05:38,296 --> 01:05:39,527 models and these kinds of things. 1558 01:05:39,527 --> 01:05:40,828 I think to your point, once 1559 01:05:40,379 --> 01:05:41,379 Totally. 1560 01:05:40,828 --> 01:05:45,492 you get into enterprise and you're at Comcast or you're someplace like that, 1561 01:05:45,492 --> 01:05:49,325 I think that there's like there's there is an enterprise solution to this that tends 1562 01:05:49,325 --> 01:05:53,058 to be more palatable and more the love language of those kinds of larger 1563 01:05:53,058 --> 01:05:54,109 and now if you're like a 1564 01:05:54,259 --> 01:05:57,931 team within Comcast, if you're like a six-person team in a big environment. 1565 01:05:57,931 --> 01:05:59,472 Now we're back talking about this again. 1566 01:05:59,472 --> 01:06:03,633 Like your team might need the but yeah there is there and and again like this 1567 01:06:03,633 --> 01:06:05,284 is a strong opinion softly held. 1568 01:06:05,284 --> 01:06:06,284 I don't 1569 01:06:05,944 --> 01:06:06,944 Mm-hmm. 1570 01:06:06,425 --> 01:06:09,946 I please don't like take this as like a white paper I'm writing or anything. 1571 01:06:09,946 --> 01:06:13,068 This is just our observed behavior has been that like 1572 01:06:12,533 --> 01:06:13,533 Yeah. 1573 01:06:13,218 --> 01:06:16,890 there is kind of an in the middle kind of sweet spot where these kinds 1574 01:06:16,890 --> 01:06:20,492 of things make sense related to the way that people in a team 1575 01:06:20,492 --> 01:06:21,492 of seven work together. 1576 01:06:21,633 --> 01:06:25,173 It's like a human thing. Like the way that like I mean you and I talk about this 1577 01:06:25,173 --> 01:06:27,086 a million times. The on the agency side, 1578 01:06:27,086 --> 01:06:30,318 there's these breakpoints of complexity that require you to change 1579 01:06:30,318 --> 01:06:33,298 the structure of your agency. If you're like a solo person, 1580 01:06:33,298 --> 01:06:36,420 that's one kind of company. If you're a four person company, 1581 01:06:36,420 --> 01:06:37,631 that's a different kind of company. 1582 01:06:37,631 --> 01:06:39,292 When you get to like eight or nine, 1583 01:06:39,292 --> 01:06:40,862 that's where you need like a project manager. 1584 01:06:40,862 --> 01:06:44,774 Because now there's enough people doing different things and kind 1585 01:06:44,774 --> 01:06:48,116 of operating separately that you need like an observable layer on top 1586 01:06:48,116 --> 01:06:49,777 of that stuff that you need a PM. 1587 01:06:49,777 --> 01:06:50,777 Like 1588 01:06:50,111 --> 01:06:51,252 We're talking about the same thing here. 1589 01:06:51,252 --> 01:06:54,924 Like if you get greater than I don't know that these kinds of tools 1590 01:06:55,124 --> 01:06:57,405 are as powerful as they could be, 1591 01:06:57,405 --> 01:06:58,804 but if you're talking about five, 1592 01:06:58,122 --> 01:06:59,122 Well, I I do think 1593 01:06:58,804 --> 01:06:59,804 six, seven 1594 01:06:59,234 --> 01:07:00,234 people, yeah. 1595 01:07:00,043 --> 01:07:01,825 yeah. And I think once you get to enterprise, 1596 01:07:01,825 --> 01:07:05,928 anything that they're doing is gonna be so locked down in terms of talking about it, 1597 01:07:05,082 --> 01:07:06,816 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 1598 01:07:05,928 --> 01:07:07,119 right? Because if they're building 1599 01:07:07,119 --> 01:07:10,302 their own secret sauce using agentic tools, 1600 01:07:10,302 --> 01:07:13,324 that's a huge competitive advantage that 1601 01:07:12,550 --> 01:07:13,550 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1602 01:07:13,485 --> 01:07:17,608 you're not gonna hear about versus the platforms that would come out and be like, 1603 01:07:17,608 --> 01:07:18,829 well, you better get on it too, 1604 01:07:18,829 --> 01:07:20,581 because that's what everybody else is using. 1605 01:07:20,581 --> 01:07:21,581 I think we're 1606 01:07:20,866 --> 01:07:21,866 Yeah. 1607 01:07:21,361 --> 01:07:25,365 gonna see a shift away from that because you you don't have competitive advantage. 1608 01:07:25,515 --> 01:07:28,297 If everyone's already using Salesforce and now you are too. 1609 01:07:28,134 --> 01:07:30,329 Right. Yeah. Yep. 1610 01:07:28,297 --> 01:07:30,489 so I think it'll 1611 01:07:30,489 --> 01:07:35,133 be it'll be interesting how the how the software development moves internally 1612 01:07:35,133 --> 01:07:37,986 in enterprises and what that does to the competitive space. 1613 01:07:37,986 --> 01:07:39,067 But 1614 01:07:38,589 --> 01:07:39,589 Mm. 1615 01:07:39,067 --> 01:07:41,709 for for what it can unlock for the smaller teams, 1616 01:07:41,709 --> 01:07:46,400 I agree, it's huge. And I I think so you're seeing people reach 1617 01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,943 out to Pine Works with are you seeing people reach out because they know that they 1618 01:07:49,943 --> 01:07:51,705 want this kind of solution, or are you 1619 01:07:51,855 --> 01:07:54,699 kind of identifying the need and then proposing it. 1620 01:07:53,682 --> 01:07:55,604 Yeah, the latter. The latter. We're 1621 01:07:54,699 --> 01:07:55,699 Yeah. 1622 01:07:55,604 --> 01:07:59,676 not at that point yet. We're not at the point yet where people identify that this 1623 01:07:59,676 --> 01:08:01,658 could be the solve for the problem they have. 1624 01:08:01,658 --> 01:08:04,620 We we're basically having our traditional, 1625 01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:09,514 can you come in from a software development perspective and build some tools 1626 01:08:09,514 --> 01:08:11,595 and help us achieve our goals? 1627 01:08:11,595 --> 01:08:14,147 You know, and in that conversation, 1628 01:08:14,147 --> 01:08:16,298 then we're kind of opening the door up to like, 1629 01:08:16,298 --> 01:08:20,332 I don't know, like maybe this makes sense to build this kind of 1630 01:08:20,482 --> 01:08:22,524 Agentic approach. It's not every time either. 1631 01:08:22,524 --> 01:08:24,115 Like we just did a whole project with Topgolf, 1632 01:08:24,115 --> 01:08:28,418 and the only agentic tools we used was Ryan writing code with like a 1633 01:08:28,418 --> 01:08:30,550 you know code assistant. Like that's there's nothing 1634 01:08:30,087 --> 01:08:31,087 Right. 1635 01:08:30,700 --> 01:08:32,532 agentic in the heart of that work. 1636 01:08:32,532 --> 01:08:34,694 But I do think but we're hoping. 1637 01:08:34,694 --> 01:08:37,706 I mean, that's the reason why we're we have the the podcast. 1638 01:08:37,706 --> 01:08:39,557 that's the reason why we're trying to publish about it more. 1639 01:08:39,557 --> 01:08:45,131 Like the trick is incepting this possibility into people's brains and they realize, 1640 01:08:45,922 --> 01:08:47,442 That could work for me. I Anthony, 1641 01:08:47,442 --> 01:08:49,223 he might have done this when we were together, 1642 01:08:49,223 --> 01:08:51,107 but like I think he did do this. 1643 01:08:51,107 --> 01:08:54,629 But Anthony does this thing where he talks about the first agent he ever built. 1644 01:08:54,629 --> 01:08:57,902 And it was basically like a podcast producer for his podcast. 1645 01:08:57,902 --> 01:08:59,574 He has a sp okay, 1646 01:08:58,288 --> 01:08:59,288 yeah, I remember that. Yeah. 1647 01:08:59,574 --> 01:09:02,436 remember? So he has a space podcast that has this massive following. 1648 01:09:02,436 --> 01:09:05,218 Everybody, if you like space, you should check out main engine cutoff. 1649 01:09:05,218 --> 01:09:10,862 It's insane. but Anthony has he's up to episode 935 or something like that. 1650 01:09:10,862 --> 01:09:13,013 It's crazy how many of these podcasts he's done. 1651 01:09:13,834 --> 01:09:16,545 But he had a workflow for preparing for the podcast. 1652 01:09:16,545 --> 01:09:19,178 He had R he had RSS feeds he subscribed to. 1653 01:09:19,178 --> 01:09:21,319 He had newsletters and emails and all. 1654 01:09:21,319 --> 01:09:24,821 He would collect all this news and then he would create a rundown and kind 1655 01:09:24,821 --> 01:09:27,652 of a script for the podcast. And then he would record the podcast. 1656 01:09:27,652 --> 01:09:30,725 And he taught his agent, Hayden, 1657 01:09:30,725 --> 01:09:35,457 to do all this work for him. So then Hayden goes through and does the research, 1658 01:09:35,457 --> 01:09:39,690 pulls the RSS feeds together, pulls all the information and and creates exactly 1659 01:09:39,911 --> 01:09:42,132 the same kind of document Anthony used to create. 1660 01:09:42,281 --> 01:09:46,073 But now Anthony doesn't spend six hours creating this document for every podcast. 1661 01:09:46,073 --> 01:09:50,004 Hayden does it and has gotten so good at it that it's like not only 1662 01:09:50,004 --> 01:09:52,756 is it indistinguishable from the ones that Anthony used to make, 1663 01:09:52,756 --> 01:09:58,557 but now Hayden is like proposing new people to follow and you know scouting things 1664 01:09:58,557 --> 01:09:59,687 and like bringing novel stuff. 1665 01:09:59,687 --> 01:10:04,009 So the the magic of that example that I've seen is most people we talk 1666 01:10:04,009 --> 01:10:05,810 to doesn't they don't have a podcast. 1667 01:10:05,810 --> 01:10:08,370 Like none of this makes sense for is germane to what they do. 1668 01:10:08,521 --> 01:10:09,521 But once 1669 01:10:08,545 --> 01:10:09,545 Right. 1670 01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:14,295 you describe like the blocking and tackling of what Anthony used to do 1671 01:10:14,375 --> 01:10:19,039 and now what this thing does and how much time it saves Anthony and 1672 01:10:19,039 --> 01:10:23,623 how much more opportunity it creates because it's actually pitching guests 1673 01:10:23,623 --> 01:10:26,870 for the podcast, like you can see the ha that happen in people's lives. 1674 01:10:26,870 --> 01:10:27,937 Like, well, I don't a podcast, 1675 01:10:27,937 --> 01:10:31,999 but I do have this other thing that I have to work on that is fairly routine. 1676 01:10:31,999 --> 01:10:34,761 It's a little time consuming. I have a way I like to do it. 1677 01:10:34,911 --> 01:10:37,162 If I could teach an agent to do this for me, 1678 01:10:37,162 --> 01:10:39,832 my God, that's like two and a half hours every week. 1679 01:10:39,832 --> 01:10:41,453 I I I would still get what I needed, 1680 01:10:41,453 --> 01:10:43,583 but I wouldn't have to spend the time doing it anymore. 1681 01:10:43,583 --> 01:10:46,955 Like that's the challenge is helping give these stories to people where they 1682 01:10:46,955 --> 01:10:49,335 can identify themselves and then they can say, 1683 01:10:49,335 --> 01:10:52,996 like, ooh, like I want a version of that for my team because you know, 1684 01:10:52,996 --> 01:10:55,627 the other thing that we like to say is like if your job has spreadsheets in it, 1685 01:10:55,627 --> 01:10:56,627 this is for you. 1686 01:10:56,717 --> 01:10:57,717 Yeah. 1687 01:10:57,135 --> 01:10:59,915 Like, like if if your job involves spreadsheets, 1688 01:10:59,915 --> 01:11:01,766 baby do we got a solution for you? 1689 01:11:01,751 --> 01:11:02,751 Come talk 1690 01:11:01,766 --> 01:11:02,766 Because 1691 01:11:02,372 --> 01:11:04,645 to us right away. I don't know, 1692 01:11:02,886 --> 01:11:05,307 Yeah, 'cause like yeah, th this is this is 1693 01:11:04,645 --> 01:11:05,645 some people are some 1694 01:11:05,416 --> 01:11:06,999 people are attached to their spreadsheets though, 1695 01:11:06,999 --> 01:11:07,999 Joe. 1696 01:11:07,359 --> 01:11:10,231 They're never gonna go away. We're never gonna take your spreadsheets from you. 1697 01:11:10,231 --> 01:11:13,262 I promise. I promise. And they'll be exactly the way you like them, 1698 01:11:13,262 --> 01:11:15,544 and you'll have all your columns the way you like them and all that. 1699 01:11:15,544 --> 01:11:20,527 Like, God forbid. But on top of the spreadsheet, 1700 01:11:15,764 --> 01:11:18,501 I don't know. I think some people yeah. 1701 01:11:18,501 --> 01:11:21,610 I hear ya though. I hear ya. Yeah. 1702 01:11:20,527 --> 01:11:21,857 though, once you have the and 1703 01:11:21,857 --> 01:11:24,214 I think that that's you and I talked about this months ago, 1704 01:11:24,214 --> 01:11:28,240 I feel like. If you have really interesting data, 1705 01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:32,923 IP data, something, some some nugget of cool. 1706 01:11:33,073 --> 01:11:34,693 Then you can make interesting things with it. 1707 01:11:34,693 --> 01:11:37,134 So you have to have whatever, in this case, 1708 01:11:37,134 --> 01:11:40,434 years of customer data to build this thing on top of, 1709 01:11:40,434 --> 01:11:44,297 or you have to have hours of Granola transcripts to build this thing on top of. 1710 01:11:44,297 --> 01:11:47,618 You have to have this spreadsheet that you spent two years creating that 1711 01:11:47,618 --> 01:11:49,668 has all of your hopes and dreams in it and all your cool stuff. 1712 01:11:49,668 --> 01:11:51,358 Like, if you've taken the time, 1713 01:11:51,358 --> 01:11:53,369 if you have those kinds of resources, 1714 01:11:53,369 --> 01:11:57,850 then building these kinds of custom software layers on top of them. 1715 01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:00,341 It's incredibly powerful because you've done the hard part. 1716 01:12:00,341 --> 01:12:03,624 You've created the repository of all this information. 1717 01:12:03,624 --> 01:12:08,277 You've created, you know, eighteen years of of white papers and 1718 01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:09,321 Yeah, you you've got 1719 01:12:08,537 --> 01:12:10,288 now you're gonna make it like a knowledge center. 1720 01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,983 a lot of ingredients, a lot of colors to give the palette, 1721 01:12:13,414 --> 01:12:15,072 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 1722 01:12:13,983 --> 01:12:15,130 right? But I 1723 01:12:15,130 --> 01:12:17,151 think one I think what you brought up a good point, 1724 01:12:17,151 --> 01:12:21,132 which is that a lot of times people just they don't they don't know how 1725 01:12:21,132 --> 01:12:23,113 it could be applied. And so you 1726 01:12:22,420 --> 01:12:23,420 Yeah, exactly. 1727 01:12:23,113 --> 01:12:26,985 I think a a great follow-up would just be a conversation. 1728 01:12:26,985 --> 01:12:28,826 Maybe we could just brainstorm like, 1729 01:12:28,826 --> 01:12:32,248 hey, well you could you could do this or you could do that. 1730 01:12:32,248 --> 01:12:34,269 if you have this kind of problem, 1731 01:12:32,591 --> 01:12:36,251 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 1732 01:12:34,269 --> 01:12:35,770 you could solve it this way. 1733 01:12:36,318 --> 01:12:42,295 Almost just like a like a brainstorm on all the different ways that teams could 1734 01:12:42,315 --> 01:12:46,090 solve certain problems. So I just don't think that it's automatic yet 1735 01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,673 agreed. It's 100%. It's not enough, 1736 01:12:47,372 --> 01:12:49,785 to look to these tools for a sol f 1737 01:12:49,785 --> 01:12:50,785 yeah. 1738 01:12:50,135 --> 01:12:51,897 it's not observed enough behavior yet. 1739 01:12:51,897 --> 01:12:53,408 You know, it's not like you haven't 1740 01:12:52,075 --> 01:12:53,267 Yeah. Yeah. 1741 01:12:53,408 --> 01:12:54,675 seen it enough, you haven't heard of it enough, 1742 01:12:54,675 --> 01:12:56,446 you haven't peeked over someone's shoulder and seen it. 1743 01:12:56,446 --> 01:13:00,263 There's there's a novelty to this that is like a barrier to entry where it's kind 1744 01:13:00,263 --> 01:13:02,184 of hard to imagine, to your point, 1745 01:13:02,184 --> 01:13:05,386 ways this could apply. I I do think there's a little bit of like telling these 1746 01:13:05,386 --> 01:13:06,747 stories and sharing these examples, 1747 01:13:06,747 --> 01:13:08,399 and they're analogous in certain ways, 1748 01:13:08,399 --> 01:13:10,339 and then there's a little bit of an unlock that can happen. 1749 01:13:10,339 --> 01:13:13,162 But I think you're right. There is like just a delta between 1750 01:13:13,312 --> 01:13:15,564 What can be done and what people perceive can be done. 1751 01:13:15,564 --> 01:13:17,194 That is, I think that's like, you know, 1752 01:13:17,194 --> 01:13:19,656 that that's what the next year looks like is kind of, 1753 01:13:19,656 --> 01:13:22,217 you know, shortening the gap between those two things. 1754 01:13:22,217 --> 01:13:25,720 And, you know, there'll be a day where someone reaches out to Pine Works 1755 01:13:25,870 --> 01:13:28,212 for an agentic project expressly, 1756 01:13:28,212 --> 01:13:30,553 not hey, you've been working like in our cases, 1757 01:13:30,553 --> 01:13:31,824 everybody we've been doing this with, 1758 01:13:31,824 --> 01:13:34,656 we've been working with them on a variety of other projects 1759 01:13:34,806 --> 01:13:37,478 for somewhere between six months and two years. 1760 01:13:37,478 --> 01:13:40,228 And then we're in there and we've earned trust and we know what they're doing and 1761 01:13:40,378 --> 01:13:41,959 And we know what needs to be done. 1762 01:13:41,959 --> 01:13:46,769 And several months into this, we're able to to your point, 1763 01:13:46,769 --> 01:13:51,874 we're able to brainstorm and propose like a kind of kooky seeming agentic solution 1764 01:13:52,024 --> 01:13:56,125 that is the unlock that turns into this other like cool project 1765 01:13:56,125 --> 01:13:57,847 or product they didn't know they needed, 1766 01:13:57,847 --> 01:14:01,288 or you know, this this capability they didn't know they could have, 1767 01:14:01,288 --> 01:14:02,699 frankly. Like I didn't know I could have that. 1768 01:14:02,849 --> 01:14:08,127 When when you have been able to present an idea that they hadn't necessarily 1769 01:14:08,127 --> 01:14:09,629 considered and then deliver on it, 1770 01:14:09,629 --> 01:14:11,561 do you find that then they're like, 1771 01:14:11,561 --> 01:14:13,685 Well, what else? Where else? Yeah. 1772 01:14:12,436 --> 01:14:14,487 Yeah, 100%. That's exactly the case. 1773 01:14:13,685 --> 01:14:15,157 Yeah. 1774 01:14:14,487 --> 01:14:15,487 It's so 1775 01:14:15,388 --> 01:14:17,810 in my in our one client that we built the I mean, 1776 01:14:17,810 --> 01:14:19,811 I have to be careful about how much I disclose, 1777 01:14:19,811 --> 01:14:22,683 but I would say yes. I would say that on the one like number one, 1778 01:14:22,683 --> 01:14:26,775 you know, once a department or team has this kind of capability, 1779 01:14:26,775 --> 01:14:29,626 there is a FOMO kind of thing that happens. 1780 01:14:29,626 --> 01:14:33,559 Or there is like a there is kind of like a your thing connects to my thing. 1781 01:14:33,559 --> 01:14:35,320 Look what your thing looks like and look what my thing looks like. 1782 01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:39,373 So it does kind of spread like kudzu through an organization when like 1783 01:14:39,523 --> 01:14:42,224 One team gets propped up by it, 1784 01:14:42,224 --> 01:14:44,805 other people want it too. We had a great example. 1785 01:14:44,805 --> 01:14:47,106 one of our clients, I forget, 1786 01:14:47,106 --> 01:14:49,357 I forget I Anthony tells the story better than I do because I wasn't 1787 01:14:49,357 --> 01:14:53,207 in this meeting, but there was effectively this instance where people were talking 1788 01:14:53,207 --> 01:14:57,519 about how great it would be if they could like just, 1789 01:14:57,519 --> 01:15:02,372 you know, unlock this customer data and the CEO turned to our client and said, 1790 01:15:02,372 --> 01:15:03,696 like, is it time? Do you want to show them? 1791 01:15:03,696 --> 01:15:05,662 And then like he like went off about. 1792 01:15:05,812 --> 01:15:09,285 how much this like sales enablement stuff has so there is a little bit 1793 01:15:09,285 --> 01:15:13,818 of like once you see it, there is like a prairie fire that happens of like, 1794 01:15:13,818 --> 01:15:16,370 ooh, like I want, you know, my version of that. 1795 01:15:16,370 --> 01:15:18,412 Or I, you know, there I think that is the case. 1796 01:15:18,412 --> 01:15:19,873 And and and again, it's like 1797 01:15:20,023 --> 01:15:23,085 Even I'm thinking there's one project you could argue we started out. 1798 01:15:23,085 --> 01:15:26,547 We we the first project we did was an agentic project. 1799 01:15:26,547 --> 01:15:30,349 But even in that case, we had had four false starts on versions 1800 01:15:30,349 --> 01:15:33,741 of non-agentic projects with this person while they were figuring 1801 01:15:33,741 --> 01:15:36,863 out funding for their little for their like app they were creating. 1802 01:15:36,863 --> 01:15:41,666 And then we kind of earned the right over three or four sales conversations over 1803 01:15:41,666 --> 01:15:43,675 the past year to then say, like, 1804 01:15:43,675 --> 01:15:45,606 we can actually do this agentically. 1805 01:15:45,756 --> 01:15:47,319 And that is gonna be the first project we worked on. 1806 01:15:47,319 --> 01:15:50,643 But we didn't start there. Like we started with a bunch of other false starts before 1807 01:15:50,643 --> 01:15:53,457 we got to that being a possible solution. 1808 01:15:53,457 --> 01:15:54,940 Yeah. 1809 01:15:53,881 --> 01:15:55,101 Yeah. Yeah. I 1810 01:15:55,101 --> 01:15:58,422 think it's it's still it's still new and still evolving. 1811 01:15:57,908 --> 01:16:00,966 Yeah. And a little scary. Like not for nothing. 1812 01:15:58,422 --> 01:16:01,842 But yeah, yeah, 1813 01:16:00,966 --> 01:16:03,624 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 1814 01:16:01,842 --> 01:16:03,324 a little a little scary for sure. 1815 01:16:04,144 --> 01:16:05,684 but I'm in the same same boat. 1816 01:16:05,684 --> 01:16:10,035 I'm just like super excited. It's it's like I have more toys than I know what 1817 01:16:10,035 --> 01:16:12,976 to do with right now. And so that's that's why I have 1818 01:16:10,336 --> 01:16:12,828 Yeah yeah. Yeah. Yep. 1819 01:16:12,976 --> 01:16:14,407 to be like close the computer, 1820 01:16:14,407 --> 01:16:16,698 go touch grass, as they say, you know, 1821 01:16:14,910 --> 01:16:16,820 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1822 01:16:16,698 --> 01:16:17,748 like get away from it all. 1823 01:16:16,820 --> 01:16:18,375 Yeah. Yeah. 1824 01:16:18,448 --> 01:16:20,109 but it's super exciting. Well, 1825 01:16:20,109 --> 01:16:21,339 listen, thank you for 1826 01:16:21,489 --> 01:16:23,865 just catching up on all this stuff with me publicly. 1827 01:16:23,557 --> 01:16:24,557 My pleasure. 1828 01:16:24,606 --> 01:16:28,756 always nice to share. I it's like we should talk about this on the internet, 1829 01:16:28,756 --> 01:16:30,339 right? The podcast that you guys are doing. 1830 01:16:29,729 --> 01:16:31,834 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anytime, 1831 01:16:31,834 --> 01:16:34,158 any place, man. You you you snap your fingers, 1832 01:16:34,158 --> 01:16:35,158 I come running. 1833 01:16:34,879 --> 01:16:36,570 Well, I appreciate it. As always, 1834 01:16:36,570 --> 01:16:41,283 I love our conversations and I hope that anyone that listens and made 1835 01:16:41,283 --> 01:16:43,524 it to the end here has has 1836 01:16:42,912 --> 01:16:43,912 Ha ha. 1837 01:16:43,585 --> 01:16:46,287 enjoyed it. It's a long one, which they always are. 1838 01:16:46,018 --> 01:16:47,018 Yeah. 1839 01:16:47,788 --> 01:16:50,240 And I'll post I'll you know, 1840 01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:53,793 post links to stuff to you on the recap on the website. 1841 01:16:53,793 --> 01:16:57,236 So anybody who's looking to track down Joe for either the work he's doing 1842 01:16:57,236 --> 01:16:59,748 at Pine Works or his consulting through clutch, 1843 01:16:59,748 --> 01:17:03,471 please do. I can't recommend him. 1844 01:17:03,621 --> 01:17:05,902 more highly for what he 1845 01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:06,400 Ha ha. 1846 01:17:05,902 --> 01:17:10,566 does. So and I'm a and a I'm a I'm not just a what do I say? 1847 01:17:10,566 --> 01:17:17,170 I'm not just a what is the character Yeah Yeah 1848 01:17:11,215 --> 01:17:14,377 All right. Not a not just a I'm not just a member, 1849 01:17:14,377 --> 01:17:15,971 I'm the president. Yeah, totally. 1850 01:17:15,971 --> 01:17:18,474 Thank you, Trace. You're the best. 1851 01:17:18,474 --> 01:17:21,198 You're the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1852 01:17:18,651 --> 01:17:20,212 something something along those lines. 1853 01:17:20,212 --> 01:17:22,153 all right. Well thanks again, Joe. 1854 01:17:21,198 --> 01:17:23,140 Thanks, 1855 01:17:22,153 --> 01:17:23,153 Take care. 1856 01:17:23,140 --> 01:17:23,583 Trace.